3 ms·

I agree that it doesn't say that in the article, but on the other hand, he admits having been here for 20 years. That definitely implies that he is here illega

I agree that it doesn't say that in the article, but on the other hand, he admits having been here for 20 years. That definitely implies that he is here illegally and knew it. He likely would get denied a green card as a result of that choice. As much as I loathe everything about how ICE is conducting their activities these days, this case does not seem like a good candidate for sympathy, it does not look like injustice.

goatlover 8mo ago
What harm was he doing being here for 20 years? Was he engaged in criminal activities? If not, then I just don't see the point in detaining people who have a life here. Have him jump through the hoops to acquire legal status, that's fine. But deportation is cruel. The US is not in danger of being overpopulated. The whole narrative of dangerous illegals over running the country is a far-right boogey man.
- danudey 8mo ago
  > But deportation is cruel. The cruelty is the point.
- rootusrootus 8mo ago
  That is a moral argument, not a legal one. Plenty of people would call what you are describing a moral hazard to be avoided. I imagine the people who are going through the process legally would be especially outraged.
  - goatlover 8mo ago
    You go through the legal process to make sure you have all the rights of being here legally and don't have to continue worrying about it. That doesn't mean someone who's status changes over time should be detained and deported simply because they're no longer here legally or their legality is in dispute. There are other ways to handle it. Why be outraged at someone else's status? People migrate for all sorts of reasons.
    - rayiner 8mo ago
      Someone who came to the U.S. from a first world country on a 90-day visa waiver meant for tourism and business trips should be immediately deported if they overstay their visa. It’s actually the clearest case for deportation there is. And you should be outraged at people who don’t follow the rules. One of the things that makes America a first world country is that cutting in line is considered a crime against society and carries heavy social consequences. Saying “don’t make noise when you see other people breaking the rules” is the mentality that exists in the third world country I’m from and it has no place in the U.S.
danudey 8mo ago
It doesn't look like injustice that he's been locked up in squalid conditions for five months with no trial or process? How long is he going to be there? Is he going to face a trial or tribunal? Is he getting deported? If you think he should be free to stay in the US, fine; if you think he deserves to be deported, fine; what he doesn't deserve is to be corralled indefinitely in filthy conditions just because they need to meet their quotas. If you don't think that's injustice then there's something wrong with your sense of morality.
- rootusrootus 8mo ago
  Despite breathless claims to the contrary, I strongly suspect that he could volunteer today to be deported, sign the paperwork and be on a plane back to Ireland within days. The gov't would be perfectly happy to rid themselves of the problem, ban him from returning, and send him on his way. Though I could believe it would take a little longer right now due to the volume of detentions and the apparent incompetence of ICE.
alexgieg 8mo ago
In your view, is legality always and invariably the same as justice? In other words, are all laws just, and all that's just is codified as law?
- rootusrootus 8mo ago
  > always and invariably When you frame a question as an absolute, I feel comfortable answering no. If you have a real philosophical argument you want to make, go for it.
  - alexgieg 8mo ago
    You said what happened to him was just. Most people I've seen have taken the position it was legal but unjust.
- rayiner 8mo ago
  Just includes citizens being able to decide the terms and conditions on which outsiders are allowed into their country. Being able to decide the conditions for immigration is a fundamental consequence of the right of self determination.
  - alexgieg 8mo ago
    It seems US citizens are quite divided on this, which suggests there's intense dissatisfaction with the law as is, and therefore the need to re-legislate the topic following the current will of the majority.

goatlover 8mo ago

What harm was he doing being here for 20 years? Was he engaged in criminal activities? If not, then I just don't see the point in detaining people who have a life here. Have him jump through the hoops to acquire legal status, that's fine. But deportation is cruel. The US is not in danger of being overpopulated. The whole narrative of dangerous illegals over running the country is a far-right boogey man.

danudey 8mo ago
> But deportation is cruel. The cruelty is the point.
rootusrootus 8mo ago
That is a moral argument, not a legal one. Plenty of people would call what you are describing a moral hazard to be avoided. I imagine the people who are going through the process legally would be especially outraged.
- goatlover 8mo ago
  You go through the legal process to make sure you have all the rights of being here legally and don't have to continue worrying about it. That doesn't mean someone who's status changes over time should be detained and deported simply because they're no longer here legally or their legality is in dispute. There are other ways to handle it. Why be outraged at someone else's status? People migrate for all sorts of reasons.
  - rayiner 8mo ago
    Someone who came to the U.S. from a first world country on a 90-day visa waiver meant for tourism and business trips should be immediately deported if they overstay their visa. It’s actually the clearest case for deportation there is. And you should be outraged at people who don’t follow the rules. One of the things that makes America a first world country is that cutting in line is considered a crime against society and carries heavy social consequences. Saying “don’t make noise when you see other people breaking the rules” is the mentality that exists in the third world country I’m from and it has no place in the U.S.

danudey 8mo ago

It doesn't look like injustice that he's been locked up in squalid conditions for five months with no trial or process? How long is he going to be there? Is he going to face a trial or tribunal? Is he getting deported? If you think he should be free to stay in the US, fine; if you think he deserves to be deported, fine; what he doesn't deserve is to be corralled indefinitely in filthy conditions just because they need to meet their quotas. If you don't think that's injustice then there's something wrong with your sense of morality.

rootusrootus 8mo ago
Despite breathless claims to the contrary, I strongly suspect that he could volunteer today to be deported, sign the paperwork and be on a plane back to Ireland within days. The gov't would be perfectly happy to rid themselves of the problem, ban him from returning, and send him on his way. Though I could believe it would take a little longer right now due to the volume of detentions and the apparent incompetence of ICE.

alexgieg 8mo ago

In your view, is legality always and invariably the same as justice? In other words, are all laws just, and all that's just is codified as law?

rootusrootus 8mo ago
> always and invariably When you frame a question as an absolute, I feel comfortable answering no. If you have a real philosophical argument you want to make, go for it.
- alexgieg 8mo ago
  You said what happened to him was just. Most people I've seen have taken the position it was legal but unjust.
rayiner 8mo ago
Just includes citizens being able to decide the terms and conditions on which outsiders are allowed into their country. Being able to decide the conditions for immigration is a fundamental consequence of the right of self determination.
- alexgieg 8mo ago
  It seems US citizens are quite divided on this, which suggests there's intense dissatisfaction with the law as is, and therefore the need to re-legislate the topic following the current will of the majority.