3 ms·

TIL detention without trial is a thing in Singapore [^1], ministers love to brag about increasing the severity of detention without trial [^2], and that the lon

TIL detention without trial is a thing in Singapore [^1], ministers love to brag about increasing the severity of detention without trial [^2], and that the longest someone was held in detention without trial in Singapore was 23+9 years [^3]. That person was never charged. [^1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Law_(Temporary_Provisions)_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Law_(Temporary_Provis... [^2]: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/my-views-on-laws-about-detention-without-trial-have-evolved-coordinating-minister-for-national https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/my-views-on-... [^3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chia_Thye_Poh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chia_Thye_Poh

46493168 8mo ago
There’s a reason William Gibson called it “Disneyland with the Death Penalty” https://www.wired.com/1993/04/gibson-2/ https://www.wired.com/1993/04/gibson-2/
- budududuroiu 8mo ago
  Well, to get the death penalty you have to be charged. I actually think Singapore laws on what could get you the death penalty are pretty clear, and you'd be stupid to violate them. Being detained without trial seems scarier imo
  - ivell 8mo ago
    You need not violate them knowingly. Just having drugs in your bag placed clandestinely by someone else could get you in trouble. Along with being held without trial and risk of death penalty, this is scary.
- FatherOfCurses 8mo ago
  Yes and whenever I see anyone gushing about Singapore that's the first place my mind goes. You can keep your 1000 different Instagrammable spots, I'd rather go some place that is a little more into democracy and reasonable policing.
  - csa 8mo ago
    > reasonable policing Policing SOPs in East Asia (incl. Singapore) is different than policing SOPs in the west. Typically people are warned, often multiple times, that they are in danger of experiencing the less kind side of local law. Once the switch is flipped, this gentle hand becomes an iron fist. I will bet dollars to donuts that the person who was held without charge for decades (mentioned above) was completely not surprised that they were severely punished. They may not have liked the punishment, they may not have agreed with the opaque process, but they almost certainly can’t say that they didn’t know it was coming.
    - deaux 8mo ago
      You quoted "reasonable", but nothing what you said has any effect on reasonableness. If someone warns you that they're going to murder you if you post another 5 comments on HackerNews, and keeps you up-to-date with every comment you make, nothing about those warnings makes the subsequent murder after your 5th comment more reasonable than if they hadn't given those warnings.
      - csa 8mo ago
        > You quoted "reasonable", but nothing what you said has any effect on reasonableness. Being notified that you are or have been breaking the law and being told that there will be severe consequences if you don’t stop seems reasonable to me. It may not be how we do it in the west, but it’s hard to argue that this can’t be perceived as reasonable. Let me give you an example that opened my eyes. It’s one of many, but it’s one that you may have heard of. Michal Fay was caned in Singapore in the 1990s. I was so put off by this, that I swore never to go to Singapore. I thought that the punishment far exceeded that which could be justified by the crimes he committed (petty stuff like vandalizing cars). Then, within a 6 month period, I met two families who lived as expatriates in Singapore at the same time, one in the same community. They all said that MF was a pariah. They also both said that he and his family had been given gradually escalating warnings over a short period of time, with the next to last one being “MF needs to leave Singapore now”, and the last one being “you (his family) and MF need to leave Singapore now”. Apparently the job was too good, so the family stayed. We know the rest of the story. A decade later, I met a woman who worked in Singapore at the time, and she expressed similar sentiments. While I still think the punishment was excessive (even reduced to 4 lashings instead of 6), I lost all pity for MF and his family. They knew what was coming, and they either didn’t understand the culture they were in, or they didn’t believe what they were told. I’ve see similar types of policing (with warnings and an explanation of potential consequences) happen in Japan, China, and South Korea. IMHO, it works the way they want it to (mostly as an early deterrent, with very little prosecution actually taking place). This is one reason why there is such a high success rates of criminal convictions in places like Japan — if they make the effort to book you, they have overwhelming evidence, usually collected when the criminal has been warned. We may not like the laws, we may not like the punishments, but we shouldn’t be surprised by the outcomes. > If someone warns you that they're going to murder you if you post another 5 comments on HackerNews, and keeps you up-to-date with every comment you make, nothing about those warnings makes the subsequent murder after your 5th comment more reasonable than if they hadn't given those warnings. Great strawman. Posting on HN is not against the law (at least where I am).
- bitwize 8mo ago
  That's one of my favorite pieces of writing by Gibson, because he cites Neal Stephenson's "burbclave" concept. Which, to me, is like the literary equivalent of those times when a famous musician or band (including but not limited to the Barenaked Ladies and Don McLean) performed the Weird Al version of their own song.
  - 46493168 8mo ago
    Yes, and it’s probably why I often misremember it as being written by Stephenson.
funkyfiddler369 8mo ago
after reading the wiki article I'm quite certain he was saved and kept alive to continue his work. someone was out for his head but didn't have enough reach. but that's just an assumption based on stories in the good old Soviet Union.
cardanome 8mo ago
Detention without trial is also a thing in the UK. Legally limited to 6 months but extended in practice if you are Irish or advocate against the genocide in Palestine. Ask the people of Palestine Action UK. With the growing fascism all over the world we will see that kind of thing more often.
- snowpid 8mo ago
  [flagged]
- asplake 8mo ago
  https://www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights/how-long-you-can-be-held-in-custody https://www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights/how-long-you-can-be-...
  - cardanome 8mo ago
    Reality: > This trial marks the first attempt in Britain to treat political property damage as equivalent to terrorism - an unprecedented and dangerous expansion of state power. Under the current Labour government, many defendants will have spent nearly two years behind bars before even standing trial. https://www.cage.ngo/articles/trial-begins-for-first-six-of-the-filton-24-after-over-a-year-on-remand-for-opposing-uk-complicity-in-gaza-genocide https://www.cage.ngo/articles/trial-begins-for-first-six-of-...
    - wk_end 8mo ago
      Everyone in this thread is conflating/misunderstanding various things and seems a little misinformed. "Detention without trial" is a thing in the UK, as well as the US, Canada, and many (most?) other countries, even those considered non-authoritarian or whatever, for lots of crimes, not just politically convenient ones. This isn't a new thing because of growing fascism, it's literally the distinction between "jail" and "prison", or what the bail system is for. Court systems don't have the capacity to try everyone immediately upon arrest, and in various ways, look to balance that with the right to a speedy trial, the right to a presumption of innocence, justice, and public safety. (I'm not making any judgement on the balance Britain is striking in this particular case, which sounds bad!) But what OP is pointing out as problematic in Singapore's case is 1) detention without even being charged with a crime, which is what the UK government website linked above says is forbidden beyond a relatively short time frame and 2) the absence of any kind of a right to a speedy trial.
jhanschoo 8mo ago
Regarding [2], what arguments did that politician put forth and what are your thoughts on the strength of those arguments?

46493168 8mo ago

There’s a reason William Gibson called it “Disneyland with the Death Penalty” https://www.wired.com/1993/04/gibson-2/ https://www.wired.com/1993/04/gibson-2/

budududuroiu 8mo ago
Well, to get the death penalty you have to be charged. I actually think Singapore laws on what could get you the death penalty are pretty clear, and you'd be stupid to violate them. Being detained without trial seems scarier imo
- ivell 8mo ago
  You need not violate them knowingly. Just having drugs in your bag placed clandestinely by someone else could get you in trouble. Along with being held without trial and risk of death penalty, this is scary.
FatherOfCurses 8mo ago
Yes and whenever I see anyone gushing about Singapore that's the first place my mind goes. You can keep your 1000 different Instagrammable spots, I'd rather go some place that is a little more into democracy and reasonable policing.
- csa 8mo ago
  > reasonable policing Policing SOPs in East Asia (incl. Singapore) is different than policing SOPs in the west. Typically people are warned, often multiple times, that they are in danger of experiencing the less kind side of local law. Once the switch is flipped, this gentle hand becomes an iron fist. I will bet dollars to donuts that the person who was held without charge for decades (mentioned above) was completely not surprised that they were severely punished. They may not have liked the punishment, they may not have agreed with the opaque process, but they almost certainly can’t say that they didn’t know it was coming.
  - deaux 8mo ago
    You quoted "reasonable", but nothing what you said has any effect on reasonableness. If someone warns you that they're going to murder you if you post another 5 comments on HackerNews, and keeps you up-to-date with every comment you make, nothing about those warnings makes the subsequent murder after your 5th comment more reasonable than if they hadn't given those warnings.
    - csa 8mo ago
      > You quoted "reasonable", but nothing what you said has any effect on reasonableness. Being notified that you are or have been breaking the law and being told that there will be severe consequences if you don’t stop seems reasonable to me. It may not be how we do it in the west, but it’s hard to argue that this can’t be perceived as reasonable. Let me give you an example that opened my eyes. It’s one of many, but it’s one that you may have heard of. Michal Fay was caned in Singapore in the 1990s. I was so put off by this, that I swore never to go to Singapore. I thought that the punishment far exceeded that which could be justified by the crimes he committed (petty stuff like vandalizing cars). Then, within a 6 month period, I met two families who lived as expatriates in Singapore at the same time, one in the same community. They all said that MF was a pariah. They also both said that he and his family had been given gradually escalating warnings over a short period of time, with the next to last one being “MF needs to leave Singapore now”, and the last one being “you (his family) and MF need to leave Singapore now”. Apparently the job was too good, so the family stayed. We know the rest of the story. A decade later, I met a woman who worked in Singapore at the time, and she expressed similar sentiments. While I still think the punishment was excessive (even reduced to 4 lashings instead of 6), I lost all pity for MF and his family. They knew what was coming, and they either didn’t understand the culture they were in, or they didn’t believe what they were told. I’ve see similar types of policing (with warnings and an explanation of potential consequences) happen in Japan, China, and South Korea. IMHO, it works the way they want it to (mostly as an early deterrent, with very little prosecution actually taking place). This is one reason why there is such a high success rates of criminal convictions in places like Japan — if they make the effort to book you, they have overwhelming evidence, usually collected when the criminal has been warned. We may not like the laws, we may not like the punishments, but we shouldn’t be surprised by the outcomes. > If someone warns you that they're going to murder you if you post another 5 comments on HackerNews, and keeps you up-to-date with every comment you make, nothing about those warnings makes the subsequent murder after your 5th comment more reasonable than if they hadn't given those warnings. Great strawman. Posting on HN is not against the law (at least where I am).
bitwize 8mo ago
That's one of my favorite pieces of writing by Gibson, because he cites Neal Stephenson's "burbclave" concept. Which, to me, is like the literary equivalent of those times when a famous musician or band (including but not limited to the Barenaked Ladies and Don McLean) performed the Weird Al version of their own song.
- 46493168 8mo ago
  Yes, and it’s probably why I often misremember it as being written by Stephenson.

funkyfiddler369 8mo ago

after reading the wiki article I'm quite certain he was saved and kept alive to continue his work. someone was out for his head but didn't have enough reach. but that's just an assumption based on stories in the good old Soviet Union.

cardanome 8mo ago

Detention without trial is also a thing in the UK. Legally limited to 6 months but extended in practice if you are Irish or advocate against the genocide in Palestine. Ask the people of Palestine Action UK. With the growing fascism all over the world we will see that kind of thing more often.

snowpid 8mo ago
[flagged]
asplake 8mo ago
https://www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights/how-long-you-can-be-held-in-custody https://www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights/how-long-you-can-be-...
- cardanome 8mo ago
  Reality: > This trial marks the first attempt in Britain to treat political property damage as equivalent to terrorism - an unprecedented and dangerous expansion of state power. Under the current Labour government, many defendants will have spent nearly two years behind bars before even standing trial. https://www.cage.ngo/articles/trial-begins-for-first-six-of-the-filton-24-after-over-a-year-on-remand-for-opposing-uk-complicity-in-gaza-genocide https://www.cage.ngo/articles/trial-begins-for-first-six-of-...
  - wk_end 8mo ago
    Everyone in this thread is conflating/misunderstanding various things and seems a little misinformed. "Detention without trial" is a thing in the UK, as well as the US, Canada, and many (most?) other countries, even those considered non-authoritarian or whatever, for lots of crimes, not just politically convenient ones. This isn't a new thing because of growing fascism, it's literally the distinction between "jail" and "prison", or what the bail system is for. Court systems don't have the capacity to try everyone immediately upon arrest, and in various ways, look to balance that with the right to a speedy trial, the right to a presumption of innocence, justice, and public safety. (I'm not making any judgement on the balance Britain is striking in this particular case, which sounds bad!) But what OP is pointing out as problematic in Singapore's case is 1) detention without even being charged with a crime, which is what the UK government website linked above says is forbidden beyond a relatively short time frame and 2) the absence of any kind of a right to a speedy trial.

jhanschoo 8mo ago

Regarding [2], what arguments did that politician put forth and what are your thoughts on the strength of those arguments?