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Forcefully reintegrated? Colonialism was the forceful part. Not a country having control of its own land. He isn’t demanding any will of the people. Unlike the

Forcefully reintegrated? Colonialism was the forceful part. Not a country having control of its own land. He isn’t demanding any will of the people. Unlike the EU, US, etc, Chinese people are actually happy with their democratic China. In no way in Europe or US can a city claim they want “democratic” independence and go completely against the rest of the country on the side of recent protests and meddling by outside state depts. They would correctly be viewed as traitors and agitators.

Yizahi 8mo ago
There is nothing democratic about China. This is just a fact. Admittedly western countries are also not democratic per definition, but at least they have an elected oligarchy, which is miles closer to democracy than Chinese despotic regime. Even if the regime in China is kinda benevolent to the subjects, it doesn't matter for this question. Democracy is a word used a for a very specific thing, and it's completely absent in China.
- jajuuka 8mo ago
  So all the elections that happen in China are not democratic?
  - greggoB 8mo ago
    If the outcome is predetermined (which it obviously is), then no?
    - jajuuka 8mo ago
      Every villages election is predetermined? Really?
      - greggoB 8mo ago
        In a country with a one-party authoritarian politicial system, the only conceivable way they'd be allowed to not be so is if a non-predetermined outcome was not considered to be a threat to the CCP. So in a country of 1.4 billion people, literally it might not be the case, but it 100% effectively is so.
        jajuuka 8mo ago
        I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of one party systems. One party systems do not mean everyone agrees on everything. It still has all the nuances of any other political party. There are different factions, ideas and plans and that's what party members run on to get elected. It's pretty much identical to any other democracy with a majority across the government. Plenty of people are cheering on Japan who just elected that. Obviously the goal is the betterment of the country and society is shared among all the elected officials. That's why they get elected. I think a good portion of the west likes to pretend that they have parties and elected officials who want to overthrow the government in their government. But that's just not true. The overwhelming majority of western countries have actively suppressed or fought back anyone who wants to dismantle or reform the country. So are all democratic elections predetermined as well?
        greggoB 8mo ago
        > I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of one party systems. One party systems do not mean everyone agrees on everything. I am aware of this, and that the USSR had elections which allowed the people to express themselves to some extent, though never in any major way. > It still has all the nuances of any other political party This simply cannot be true on a very fundamental level, which is the lack of competition that other parties bring. Multi-party systems have both inter and intra party dynamics; by definition single-party systems can only have the latter. Saying "it's pretty much identical" shows a fundamental misunderstanding on your part. > Plenty of people are cheering on Japan who just elected that. I fail to see how this is relevant. > Obviously the goal is the betterment of the country and society is shared among all the elected officials Well, no, not at all. History is replete with examples of officials of all political, cultural and ethnic persuasions being far more interested with enriching themselves than the betterment of society. This statement comes across as rather naive. > who want to overthrow the government in their government. If you're talking about a ruling party losing an election to another party, we don't call that a government overthrow, we call that a transition of power. It is a feature of the system, and there is a lot of concern that it is done fairly and peacefully. > The overwhelming majority of western countries have actively suppressed or fought back anyone who wants to dismantle or reform the country This just reads like outright propaganda, I'm not going to bother addressing it on the merits. > So are all democratic elections predetermined as well? This is predicated on your previous propagandized statement having any real substantive factual bearing, which I don't believe it does, so my answer is no, they aren't. In fact, there are many, many examples of surprise results (see JFK, Obama, Trump, Brexit, Ukraine, etc.). So if there is some kind of global suppression operation at play, it doesn't have a very good track record of success.
    - skinnymuch 8mo ago
      It obviously is how? Because they are yellow Asians and not white like you? Hilarious that Europe and the west’s govts are not liked by their people. China’s is. And yet these same westerners act like China is the non democratic and non free country.
      - greggoB 8mo ago
        Because that's how autocratic regimes like the CCP (asian), Belarus (white), Uganda (black) work? As opposed to states like Taiwan (asian), France (white), South Africa (black). > Hilarious that Europe and the west’s govts are not liked by their people. China’s is Tell me you're a CCP troll without telling me you're a CCP troll. China is basically the epitome of non-democratic - the CCP has even gone so far as to point to the messiness traditionally involved in democracy as a justification for why it doesn't work. Get off your high horse re westerners and debate the topic on its merits. Facts are readily available to this end: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China
- skinnymuch 8mo ago
  “Used for a specific thing”. Democracy doesn’t mean liberalism. You can’t take a word and make up a meaning. Democracy is a govt that is the will of the people. China is quite literally democratic per that definition. While Europe and the west are not at all. Also electoralism isn’t democracy. The west is not the entire world. What the west says does not make things so.
  - Yizahi 8mo ago
    I'm not sure what do you mean by liberalism or electoralism or even a will of a people. Especially in this context. Democracy is a power of citizens to decide on the governing of a country they live in. This doesn't happen anywhere nowadays, except in Switzerland, where "demos"=people can actually execute their will of majority "kratos" to vote on the governing of their country. With some limitations of course, but it is a real democracy. Other western countries have an elective oligarchy, and people can't decide on what those oligarchs will vote on, the system is indirect. And China is pure and simple autocracy. A despotia governed a by a single man plus his cronies. There is no election process in China, so demos is completely separated from governing, there is not even indirect link.
CrossVR 8mo ago
Europe actually has quite a few independent cities with their own little micro nations that are democratically independent.
- skinnymuch 8mo ago
  How can they be democratically independent when the entire continent is controlled by NATO? Democracy means something. Democracy can’t exist while you’re a vassal state.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
StopDisinfo910 8mo ago
The PRC never owned Hong-Kong before the handover and I don't remember the population of Hong-Kong voting for reintegration so yes, forcefully reintegrated seems like a nice way to frame it. Actually taken over would be more correct, traded as merchandise would also be appropriate I guess. You get the idea.
- hnfong 8mo ago
  Much of Hong Kong was under a 99 year lease. Which is why the Brits had to hand it back in 1997 when the lease expired. Sure, it was a lease from the Qing dynasty which doesn't exist any more, but still.
- skinnymuch 8mo ago
  China existed 100 years ago. Hong Kong is Chinese. I have never come across a person who isn’t a bigot and raging chauvinist who tries to act like the Chinese civilization and the PRC are distinct things. Though not saying you are, you may be an exception
  - Yizahi 8mo ago
    So you are saying that world borders should be redrawn according to a state some few hundred years ago? Please tell be, which exact year do you think we should use for that?

Yizahi 8mo ago

There is nothing democratic about China. This is just a fact. Admittedly western countries are also not democratic per definition, but at least they have an elected oligarchy, which is miles closer to democracy than Chinese despotic regime. Even if the regime in China is kinda benevolent to the subjects, it doesn't matter for this question. Democracy is a word used a for a very specific thing, and it's completely absent in China.

jajuuka 8mo ago
So all the elections that happen in China are not democratic?
- greggoB 8mo ago
  If the outcome is predetermined (which it obviously is), then no?
  - jajuuka 8mo ago
    Every villages election is predetermined? Really?
    - greggoB 8mo ago
      In a country with a one-party authoritarian politicial system, the only conceivable way they'd be allowed to not be so is if a non-predetermined outcome was not considered to be a threat to the CCP. So in a country of 1.4 billion people, literally it might not be the case, but it 100% effectively is so.
      - jajuuka 8mo ago
        I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of one party systems. One party systems do not mean everyone agrees on everything. It still has all the nuances of any other political party. There are different factions, ideas and plans and that's what party members run on to get elected. It's pretty much identical to any other democracy with a majority across the government. Plenty of people are cheering on Japan who just elected that. Obviously the goal is the betterment of the country and society is shared among all the elected officials. That's why they get elected. I think a good portion of the west likes to pretend that they have parties and elected officials who want to overthrow the government in their government. But that's just not true. The overwhelming majority of western countries have actively suppressed or fought back anyone who wants to dismantle or reform the country. So are all democratic elections predetermined as well?
        greggoB 8mo ago
        > I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of one party systems. One party systems do not mean everyone agrees on everything. I am aware of this, and that the USSR had elections which allowed the people to express themselves to some extent, though never in any major way. > It still has all the nuances of any other political party This simply cannot be true on a very fundamental level, which is the lack of competition that other parties bring. Multi-party systems have both inter and intra party dynamics; by definition single-party systems can only have the latter. Saying "it's pretty much identical" shows a fundamental misunderstanding on your part. > Plenty of people are cheering on Japan who just elected that. I fail to see how this is relevant. > Obviously the goal is the betterment of the country and society is shared among all the elected officials Well, no, not at all. History is replete with examples of officials of all political, cultural and ethnic persuasions being far more interested with enriching themselves than the betterment of society. This statement comes across as rather naive. > who want to overthrow the government in their government. If you're talking about a ruling party losing an election to another party, we don't call that a government overthrow, we call that a transition of power. It is a feature of the system, and there is a lot of concern that it is done fairly and peacefully. > The overwhelming majority of western countries have actively suppressed or fought back anyone who wants to dismantle or reform the country This just reads like outright propaganda, I'm not going to bother addressing it on the merits. > So are all democratic elections predetermined as well? This is predicated on your previous propagandized statement having any real substantive factual bearing, which I don't believe it does, so my answer is no, they aren't. In fact, there are many, many examples of surprise results (see JFK, Obama, Trump, Brexit, Ukraine, etc.). So if there is some kind of global suppression operation at play, it doesn't have a very good track record of success.
  - skinnymuch 8mo ago
    It obviously is how? Because they are yellow Asians and not white like you? Hilarious that Europe and the west’s govts are not liked by their people. China’s is. And yet these same westerners act like China is the non democratic and non free country.
    - greggoB 8mo ago
      Because that's how autocratic regimes like the CCP (asian), Belarus (white), Uganda (black) work? As opposed to states like Taiwan (asian), France (white), South Africa (black). > Hilarious that Europe and the west’s govts are not liked by their people. China’s is Tell me you're a CCP troll without telling me you're a CCP troll. China is basically the epitome of non-democratic - the CCP has even gone so far as to point to the messiness traditionally involved in democracy as a justification for why it doesn't work. Get off your high horse re westerners and debate the topic on its merits. Facts are readily available to this end: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China
skinnymuch 8mo ago
“Used for a specific thing”. Democracy doesn’t mean liberalism. You can’t take a word and make up a meaning. Democracy is a govt that is the will of the people. China is quite literally democratic per that definition. While Europe and the west are not at all. Also electoralism isn’t democracy. The west is not the entire world. What the west says does not make things so.
- Yizahi 8mo ago
  I'm not sure what do you mean by liberalism or electoralism or even a will of a people. Especially in this context. Democracy is a power of citizens to decide on the governing of a country they live in. This doesn't happen anywhere nowadays, except in Switzerland, where "demos"=people can actually execute their will of majority "kratos" to vote on the governing of their country. With some limitations of course, but it is a real democracy. Other western countries have an elective oligarchy, and people can't decide on what those oligarchs will vote on, the system is indirect. And China is pure and simple autocracy. A despotia governed a by a single man plus his cronies. There is no election process in China, so demos is completely separated from governing, there is not even indirect link.

CrossVR 8mo ago

Europe actually has quite a few independent cities with their own little micro nations that are democratically independent.

skinnymuch 8mo ago
How can they be democratically independent when the entire continent is controlled by NATO? Democracy means something. Democracy can’t exist while you’re a vassal state.

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]

StopDisinfo910 8mo ago

The PRC never owned Hong-Kong before the handover and I don't remember the population of Hong-Kong voting for reintegration so yes, forcefully reintegrated seems like a nice way to frame it. Actually taken over would be more correct, traded as merchandise would also be appropriate I guess. You get the idea.

hnfong 8mo ago
Much of Hong Kong was under a 99 year lease. Which is why the Brits had to hand it back in 1997 when the lease expired. Sure, it was a lease from the Qing dynasty which doesn't exist any more, but still.
skinnymuch 8mo ago
China existed 100 years ago. Hong Kong is Chinese. I have never come across a person who isn’t a bigot and raging chauvinist who tries to act like the Chinese civilization and the PRC are distinct things. Though not saying you are, you may be an exception
- Yizahi 8mo ago
  So you are saying that world borders should be redrawn according to a state some few hundred years ago? Please tell be, which exact year do you think we should use for that?