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There are plenty of nuance to be had on the situation in China but I wonder what you mean here. Are you arguing that it's legitimate to put a 78 years old from

There are plenty of nuance to be had on the situation in China but I wonder what you mean here. Are you arguing that it's legitimate to put a 78 years old from a former democratic city forcefully reintegrated to another state in jail for 20 years because he is saying that the will of the people should be heard?

hnfong 8mo ago
Nice strawman. Where's your nuance?
- StopDisinfo910 8mo ago
  I would be happy for you to explain where exactly is the straw man and where you expect more nuance. You think he wasn't condemned because he expressed pro-democracy view and this is not a speech issue? I would like to read it rather than vague call for nuance.
  - jajuuka 8mo ago
    https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/3336418/jimmy-lai-trial-all-eyes-hong-kong-court-set-deliver-verdict https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/33...
    - komali2 8mo ago
      The crime of "conspiracy to publish seditious materials" is an unethical law and should be abolished. We can argue that point if you'd like? Furthermore, promoting self rule is not seditious, it's anti imperialist. We can argue that one as well? The charge of colluding with foreign governments is blowing his actions way out of proportion so as to artificially inflate the severity of his "crime" for political reasons. We can argue that? We could also argue that the reason the CPC is doing this is to suppress any Hong Kong self-determinist agitation? Is anything I've said disagreeable on the premise of them being strawmen?
      - jajuuka 8mo ago
        The strawman is saying " legitimate to put a 78 years old from a former democratic city forcefully reintegrated to another state in jail for 20 years because he is saying that the will of the people should be heard?" That's not even close to reality. I don't think anything you said is a strawman though. You can of course argue whether that's right or wrong or how it fits into the greater whole. That's showing nuance. You can come to it with your own opinions and feelings but it's another thing to approach with a predetermined idea of what happened that is nothing like what happened.
        hnfong 8mo ago
        Yeah and the actual strawman I tried to point out was assuming that a random person held a very specific belief of how Lai came to be imprisoned and that it was justified. I mean, originally you only complained about the hyperbole and lack of nuances, there wasn't even anything that implied you agreed with the conviction, let alone the rationale.
        jajuuka 8mo ago
        Feels like you're trying to purity test. My point still is about the excess of hyperbole and lack of nuance. Whether that's "China did nothing wrong" or "Jimmy is the best person ever." Which you seem to agree with. My feelings on it are kind of irrelevant to that and much more complex than that.
        komali2 8mo ago
        Well, it is difficult to have a nuanced conversation about it, when the dialog coming from the Party itself is always hyperbole like "Make criminals like rats scurrying across the street, with everyone shouting 'Beat them!'" Like the charges themselves seem hyperbolic to me.
skinnymuch 8mo ago
Forcefully reintegrated? Colonialism was the forceful part. Not a country having control of its own land. He isn’t demanding any will of the people. Unlike the EU, US, etc, Chinese people are actually happy with their democratic China. In no way in Europe or US can a city claim they want “democratic” independence and go completely against the rest of the country on the side of recent protests and meddling by outside state depts. They would correctly be viewed as traitors and agitators.
- Yizahi 8mo ago
  There is nothing democratic about China. This is just a fact. Admittedly western countries are also not democratic per definition, but at least they have an elected oligarchy, which is miles closer to democracy than Chinese despotic regime. Even if the regime in China is kinda benevolent to the subjects, it doesn't matter for this question. Democracy is a word used a for a very specific thing, and it's completely absent in China.
  - jajuuka 8mo ago
    So all the elections that happen in China are not democratic?
    - greggoB 8mo ago
      If the outcome is predetermined (which it obviously is), then no?
      - jajuuka 8mo ago
        Every villages election is predetermined? Really?
        greggoB 8mo ago
        In a country with a one-party authoritarian politicial system, the only conceivable way they'd be allowed to not be so is if a non-predetermined outcome was not considered to be a threat to the CCP. So in a country of 1.4 billion people, literally it might not be the case, but it 100% effectively is so.
jajuuka 8mo ago
That's not why he and his company was convicted with multiple counts of sedition. This is what I am talking about. It's a rewriting of reality to fit a neat black and white narrative to suit whatever agenda you want.
throw4r53632 8mo ago
Just one point of clarification, Hong Kong was never a democratic city. All previous governors were simply appointed by the UK.

hnfong 8mo ago

Nice strawman. Where's your nuance?

StopDisinfo910 8mo ago
I would be happy for you to explain where exactly is the straw man and where you expect more nuance. You think he wasn't condemned because he expressed pro-democracy view and this is not a speech issue? I would like to read it rather than vague call for nuance.
- jajuuka 8mo ago
  https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/3336418/jimmy-lai-trial-all-eyes-hong-kong-court-set-deliver-verdict https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/33...
  - komali2 8mo ago
    The crime of "conspiracy to publish seditious materials" is an unethical law and should be abolished. We can argue that point if you'd like? Furthermore, promoting self rule is not seditious, it's anti imperialist. We can argue that one as well? The charge of colluding with foreign governments is blowing his actions way out of proportion so as to artificially inflate the severity of his "crime" for political reasons. We can argue that? We could also argue that the reason the CPC is doing this is to suppress any Hong Kong self-determinist agitation? Is anything I've said disagreeable on the premise of them being strawmen?
    - jajuuka 8mo ago
      The strawman is saying " legitimate to put a 78 years old from a former democratic city forcefully reintegrated to another state in jail for 20 years because he is saying that the will of the people should be heard?" That's not even close to reality. I don't think anything you said is a strawman though. You can of course argue whether that's right or wrong or how it fits into the greater whole. That's showing nuance. You can come to it with your own opinions and feelings but it's another thing to approach with a predetermined idea of what happened that is nothing like what happened.
      - hnfong 8mo ago
        Yeah and the actual strawman I tried to point out was assuming that a random person held a very specific belief of how Lai came to be imprisoned and that it was justified. I mean, originally you only complained about the hyperbole and lack of nuances, there wasn't even anything that implied you agreed with the conviction, let alone the rationale.
        jajuuka 8mo ago
        Feels like you're trying to purity test. My point still is about the excess of hyperbole and lack of nuance. Whether that's "China did nothing wrong" or "Jimmy is the best person ever." Which you seem to agree with. My feelings on it are kind of irrelevant to that and much more complex than that.
        komali2 8mo ago
        Well, it is difficult to have a nuanced conversation about it, when the dialog coming from the Party itself is always hyperbole like "Make criminals like rats scurrying across the street, with everyone shouting 'Beat them!'" Like the charges themselves seem hyperbolic to me.

skinnymuch 8mo ago

Forcefully reintegrated? Colonialism was the forceful part. Not a country having control of its own land. He isn’t demanding any will of the people. Unlike the EU, US, etc, Chinese people are actually happy with their democratic China. In no way in Europe or US can a city claim they want “democratic” independence and go completely against the rest of the country on the side of recent protests and meddling by outside state depts. They would correctly be viewed as traitors and agitators.

Yizahi 8mo ago
There is nothing democratic about China. This is just a fact. Admittedly western countries are also not democratic per definition, but at least they have an elected oligarchy, which is miles closer to democracy than Chinese despotic regime. Even if the regime in China is kinda benevolent to the subjects, it doesn't matter for this question. Democracy is a word used a for a very specific thing, and it's completely absent in China.
- jajuuka 8mo ago
  So all the elections that happen in China are not democratic?
  - greggoB 8mo ago
    If the outcome is predetermined (which it obviously is), then no?
    - jajuuka 8mo ago
      Every villages election is predetermined? Really?
      - greggoB 8mo ago
        In a country with a one-party authoritarian politicial system, the only conceivable way they'd be allowed to not be so is if a non-predetermined outcome was not considered to be a threat to the CCP. So in a country of 1.4 billion people, literally it might not be the case, but it 100% effectively is so.

jajuuka 8mo ago

That's not why he and his company was convicted with multiple counts of sedition. This is what I am talking about. It's a rewriting of reality to fit a neat black and white narrative to suit whatever agenda you want.

throw4r53632 8mo ago

Just one point of clarification, Hong Kong was never a democratic city. All previous governors were simply appointed by the UK.