4 ms·

I wish mac users would stop using homebrew and use a real package manager with actual dependency management. At the very least, replace homebrew with something

by fouc 8mo ago

I wish mac users would stop using homebrew and use a real package manager with actual dependency management. At the very least, replace homebrew with something like devbox which has `devbox global` for globally managing packages, it uses nix under the hood, and it's probably the simplest most direct replacement for homebrew.

AnonC 8mo ago
I use MacPorts because of older versions of Homebrew having a weird and insecure design. [1] I think some of those design issues may have been fixed, but I’m wary of Homebrew. [1]: https://saagarjha.com/blog/2019/04/26/thoughts-on-macos-package-managers/ https://saagarjha.com/blog/2019/04/26/thoughts-on-macos-pack...
pram 8mo ago
I don't agree this is an issue and I'll tell you why: Homebrew isn't responsible for keeping the system functional like apt or pacman, it's a supplemental thing. I've also found it's useful in this capacity on Linux specifically with LTS distros, I can get the latest fzf or zoxide or whatever without having to add some shady repo.
- thewebguyd 8mo ago
  This is how I see/use brew as well, and being able to just blow the directory away anytime and start over if need be is nice. It's not a "system" package manager, nor was it ever meant to be. Its supplemental. I've also found it valuable on the various immutable linux distros.
TheDong 8mo ago
I wish the mac users would switch to a real OS, linux, so that software companies would release linux versions of stuff first. Codex, Claude Desktop, etc etc all starting out as "macOS exclusive" feels so silly when they're targeting programmers. Linux is the only OS a programmer can actually patch and contribute to, and yet somehow we've got a huge number of developers who don't care about having a good package manager, don't care about being able to modify their kernel, don't care about their freedom to access and edit the code of the software they rely on to work... It's depressing how much of the software industry is just people on macbooks using homebrew to install a newer version of bash and paying $5 for "magnet" to snap windows to the corners since their OS holds them in a prison where they can't simply build themselves a tiling window manager in a weekend. The OS is core to your tools and workflows, and using macOS cedes your right to understand, edit, and improve your OS and workflows to a company that is actively hostile to open source, and more and more hostile to users (with a significant increase in ads and overly priced paid services over the years). Anyway, yeah, homebrew sucks. At least nix works on macOS now so there's an okay package manager there, but frankly support for macOS has been a huge drag of resources on the nix ecosystem, and I wish macOS would die off in the programming ecosystem so nix could ditch it.
- fouc 8mo ago
  I'd say support for linux has improved an incredible amount compared to 5-10 years ago. I'm often pleasantly surprised when ever a linux version of something is available because I'm used to not expecting that haha.
- cs02rm0 8mo ago
  It's Apple, not the users, that need to make that switch in the first instance. I'd love to use Linux again but I'm not leaving Apple hardware for it, or accepting poor software support for recent hardware.
  - vladvasiliu 8mo ago
    It's a question of priorities, I guess. I admit I love the mbp hardware, but I can't stand macos anymore. So when my work computer was up for replacement, I didn't think twice and went with a PC, the latest thinkpad p14s. Everything works out of the box on Linux. Is it as nice as a mac? No, especially the plastic case doesn't feel as nice under the hands as a mac's aluminum, the touchpad is quite good but worse than a mac's, and there are some gaps around the display hinge. But the display itself is quite nice (similar resolution, oled, although not as bright as a mac's), it's silent and it's plenty fast for what I do. I didn't pay for it, so I don't directly care about this point in this situation, but it also cost around half of what an equivalent mbp would have cost. I also haven't tried the battery life yet, but it should hold at least as well as my 5-yo hp elitebook, which still held for around 5 hours last year. I basically never use it for more than an hour unplugged, so battery life is low on my priorities.
  - TheDong 8mo ago
    I dunno, I'm pretty happy with my thinkpad. Even if I could run Linux flawless on a macbook (which you can't unfortunately) I'd still take the thinkpad hardware over a macbook. A macbook air is 1.25kg, and my thinkpad is 910g, and I can really feel that difference. The thinkpad keyboard also feels ever so slightly better too... and Linux working well is worth more than pretty much anything else.
  - pixl97 8mo ago
skybrian 8mo ago
It's not necessary because Mac applications shouldn't have any dependencies other than the OS. (Whatever additional libraries they use should be included.) This should also be true of basic developer tools. Once you're in a particular ecosystem, tools like deno, npm, or uv can handle their own dependencies. Alternatively, you could do development in a container and use apt-get there. That's probably safest now that we're using coding agents.
comex 8mo ago
Huh? Homebrew supports and frequently uses dependencies between formulae. It’s a bit janky around upgrades in my experience, but you’re going to have to clarify what you mean.
- fouc 8mo ago
  Dependency management means the ability to have more than 1 version of the dependency installed, under the same package name. i.e. Let's say you install a bunch of homebrew packages, everything is working. Then 6 months later you go to install another package - homebrew likes to upgrade all your packages (and their dependencies) willy nilly. And if it breaks shit, there's no way to downgrade to a specific version. Sometimes shit broke because the newer package is actually a broken package, or sometimes it's because the dev environment was depending on a specific version of that package. There's basically no way to have multiple versions of the exact same package installed unless they use their hacky workaround to create additional packages with the version number included in the package name.
pjmlp 8mo ago
I never use it when I can have my way. The UNIX in macOS is good enough for my needs, and I manually install anything extra that I might require.
marxisttemp 8mo ago
MacPorts was created by the creator of the original FreeBSD ports system who was also an Apple employee. It ought to be everyone's first choice for package management on macOS.

by fouc 8mo ago

AnonC 8mo ago

I use MacPorts because of older versions of Homebrew having a weird and insecure design. [1] I think some of those design issues may have been fixed, but I’m wary of Homebrew. [1]: https://saagarjha.com/blog/2019/04/26/thoughts-on-macos-package-managers/ https://saagarjha.com/blog/2019/04/26/thoughts-on-macos-pack...

pram 8mo ago

I don't agree this is an issue and I'll tell you why: Homebrew isn't responsible for keeping the system functional like apt or pacman, it's a supplemental thing. I've also found it's useful in this capacity on Linux specifically with LTS distros, I can get the latest fzf or zoxide or whatever without having to add some shady repo.

thewebguyd 8mo ago
This is how I see/use brew as well, and being able to just blow the directory away anytime and start over if need be is nice. It's not a "system" package manager, nor was it ever meant to be. Its supplemental. I've also found it valuable on the various immutable linux distros.

TheDong 8mo ago

I wish the mac users would switch to a real OS, linux, so that software companies would release linux versions of stuff first. Codex, Claude Desktop, etc etc all starting out as "macOS exclusive" feels so silly when they're targeting programmers. Linux is the only OS a programmer can actually patch and contribute to, and yet somehow we've got a huge number of developers who don't care about having a good package manager, don't care about being able to modify their kernel, don't care about their freedom to access and edit the code of the software they rely on to work... It's depressing how much of the software industry is just people on macbooks using homebrew to install a newer version of bash and paying $5 for "magnet" to snap windows to the corners since their OS holds them in a prison where they can't simply build themselves a tiling window manager in a weekend. The OS is core to your tools and workflows, and using macOS cedes your right to understand, edit, and improve your OS and workflows to a company that is actively hostile to open source, and more and more hostile to users (with a significant increase in ads and overly priced paid services over the years). Anyway, yeah, homebrew sucks. At least nix works on macOS now so there's an okay package manager there, but frankly support for macOS has been a huge drag of resources on the nix ecosystem, and I wish macOS would die off in the programming ecosystem so nix could ditch it.

fouc 8mo ago
I'd say support for linux has improved an incredible amount compared to 5-10 years ago. I'm often pleasantly surprised when ever a linux version of something is available because I'm used to not expecting that haha.
cs02rm0 8mo ago
It's Apple, not the users, that need to make that switch in the first instance. I'd love to use Linux again but I'm not leaving Apple hardware for it, or accepting poor software support for recent hardware.
- vladvasiliu 8mo ago
  It's a question of priorities, I guess. I admit I love the mbp hardware, but I can't stand macos anymore. So when my work computer was up for replacement, I didn't think twice and went with a PC, the latest thinkpad p14s. Everything works out of the box on Linux. Is it as nice as a mac? No, especially the plastic case doesn't feel as nice under the hands as a mac's aluminum, the touchpad is quite good but worse than a mac's, and there are some gaps around the display hinge. But the display itself is quite nice (similar resolution, oled, although not as bright as a mac's), it's silent and it's plenty fast for what I do. I didn't pay for it, so I don't directly care about this point in this situation, but it also cost around half of what an equivalent mbp would have cost. I also haven't tried the battery life yet, but it should hold at least as well as my 5-yo hp elitebook, which still held for around 5 hours last year. I basically never use it for more than an hour unplugged, so battery life is low on my priorities.
- TheDong 8mo ago
  I dunno, I'm pretty happy with my thinkpad. Even if I could run Linux flawless on a macbook (which you can't unfortunately) I'd still take the thinkpad hardware over a macbook. A macbook air is 1.25kg, and my thinkpad is 910g, and I can really feel that difference. The thinkpad keyboard also feels ever so slightly better too... and Linux working well is worth more than pretty much anything else.
- pixl97 8mo ago

skybrian 8mo ago

It's not necessary because Mac applications shouldn't have any dependencies other than the OS. (Whatever additional libraries they use should be included.) This should also be true of basic developer tools. Once you're in a particular ecosystem, tools like deno, npm, or uv can handle their own dependencies. Alternatively, you could do development in a container and use apt-get there. That's probably safest now that we're using coding agents.

comex 8mo ago

Huh? Homebrew supports and frequently uses dependencies between formulae. It’s a bit janky around upgrades in my experience, but you’re going to have to clarify what you mean.

fouc 8mo ago
Dependency management means the ability to have more than 1 version of the dependency installed, under the same package name. i.e. Let's say you install a bunch of homebrew packages, everything is working. Then 6 months later you go to install another package - homebrew likes to upgrade all your packages (and their dependencies) willy nilly. And if it breaks shit, there's no way to downgrade to a specific version. Sometimes shit broke because the newer package is actually a broken package, or sometimes it's because the dev environment was depending on a specific version of that package. There's basically no way to have multiple versions of the exact same package installed unless they use their hacky workaround to create additional packages with the version number included in the package name.

pjmlp 8mo ago

I never use it when I can have my way. The UNIX in macOS is good enough for my needs, and I manually install anything extra that I might require.

marxisttemp 8mo ago

MacPorts was created by the creator of the original FreeBSD ports system who was also an Apple employee. It ought to be everyone's first choice for package management on macOS.