4 ms·

The main benefits are that Sodium is abundant, cheap and stores 30x the energy of Lithium per unit mass. The draw back is that when exposed to water it explode

The main benefits are that Sodium is abundant, cheap and stores 30x the energy of Lithium per unit mass. The draw back is that when exposed to water it explodes with 30x the energy of Lithium. The other drawback is that it bursts into flame when exposed to air. Think of it this way, Sodium metal is abundant and cheap with 30x the energy storage (and energy transfer) of other solutions yet nobody has used it in almost any product ever (including as a coolant). The volatility of Sodium is why. Unless they have a solution to this, then I would be shorting whoever is insuring these batteries.

margalabargala 9mo ago
Sodium ion batteries use sodium ions, like in table salt. They correctly are not named metallic sodium batteries. They are less fire prone than lithium batteries, even in locations containing air. You should also consider shorting Morton [0]. They sell sodium, combined with chlorine, one of the nastiest elements around! And for products that go in people's homes! On food! [0] https://www.mortonsalt.com/ https://www.mortonsalt.com/
- hunterpayne 9mo ago
  This isn't correct. This is only true when the battery is first manufactured just like with Li-ion. Once the battery starts functioning, it is ionized metallic Sodium. All the volatility of Na but with corrosion too. There is no Chlorine nor any other halogen in there to engage in an ionic bond. In short, once the battery is functioning, the trick used to keep the Na in an ionic bond stops working (by design). After all, the ionic bond would prevent the battery from functioning. It should be noted that most manufactures aren't doing pure Na-ion. They are mixing in a little Na with the Li to stretch Li supplies and gather data on the impact of the increased volatility on safety. I wouldn't expect their first use to be in cars. I would expect them to be in grid stabilizing batteries.
  - margalabargala 9mo ago
    I was sure you were wrong so I went and did some reading and, you're right. I'm wrong. I was thinking of the aqueous sodium ion batteries, which do not have the issues described. I thought those were the ones that are commercially available, but that's not the case.
    - hunterpayne 9mo ago
      Kudos on being big enough and actually caring about accuracy.
      - rkagerer 9mo ago
        This chain is an example of why I love HN so much.
    - aixpert 9mo ago
      you deserve a high value metal medal
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
  - Tade0 9mo ago
    Isn't there very little free sodium in such batteries? At any point in time most of it should be intercalated in one or the other electrode, no?
- SapporoChris 9mo ago
  Morton salt is currently owned by Stone Canyon Industries which is a holding company. https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/STNE/ https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/STNE/
  - RupertSalt 9mo ago
    In ancient times, salt developed an extraordinary reputation. Not only was it prized as a preservative, but it was a nutritious seasoning as well. Salt had great value, and much of that nutritional value could be ascribed to the trace minerals which it carried as it was mined or otherwise harvested. Nowadays, the manufacturers of refined table salt present you with a digusting proposition: sprinkle this worthless elemental sodium-chloride onto your food, because it is "salt" and they are 100% trading on its ancient reputation. Perhaps it is better to simply trample it underfoot? Unfortunately, all the trace minerals are missing from refined salt. That pure white, homogeneous, translucent quality gives it away. The refining of salt is done purposefully, because the trace minerals are more valuable to supplement vendors. All those trace minerals are separated out and sold out to companies who will assemble them into expensive dietary supplements. Your magnesium, and selenium, and zinc that you pay $30 a bottle for. And that is also why sodium has such a nasty reputation in 2026. If you get CVD then you avoid sodium. If you get hypertension then you avoid sodium. Sodium is avoided like the plague. No physician will recommend sodium or table salt for a diet! Why should they? Adding sodium no longer introduces trace minerals or nutrition, it only introduces saltiness. It is still possible to find unrefined salt. It may be sold as "sea salt" or "kosher salt" but you'll need to find it in transparent packaging. If it contains impurities that look like pepper or dirt, then it is unrefined. If it is imprinted with the obligatory fake warning about iodide, then it may be unrefined. (The mandatory FDA "iodide" warning is not only fake, it's misleading and downright malicious.) Good luck with your salt! With love from your eponysterical HN noob!
    - SapporoChris 9mo ago
      You lifted most of your quote from https://www.navmi.co.in/difference-between-refined-salt-and-unrefined-salt/ https://www.navmi.co.in/difference-between-refined-salt-and-... without citing your source. However, the information is false. The amount of nutrients in unrefined salt is negligible. Yes it contains trace minerals but not in any significant quantity.
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
SapporoChris 9mo ago
CATL has been producing Sodium-ion batteries since 2022. As CATL has continued to produce and introduce new Sodium-ion batteries, it appears they might have a solved the issue with volatility. If they have not solved the problem, I still wouldn't recommend shorting any companies. Shorting a stock and waiting for years for it to drop is not a great strategy.
CamperBob2 9mo ago
Think of it this way, Sodium metal is abundant and cheap with 30x the energy storage (and energy transfer) of other solutions yet nobody has used it in almost any product ever (including as a coolant). Huh? See https://www.terrapower.com/natrium/ https://www.terrapower.com/natrium/ -- and it's not exactly a new idea. Also not uncommon to use sodium-filled exhaust valves in car, motorcycle, and aircraft engines.

margalabargala 9mo ago

Sodium ion batteries use sodium ions, like in table salt. They correctly are not named metallic sodium batteries. They are less fire prone than lithium batteries, even in locations containing air. You should also consider shorting Morton [0]. They sell sodium, combined with chlorine, one of the nastiest elements around! And for products that go in people's homes! On food! [0] https://www.mortonsalt.com/ https://www.mortonsalt.com/

hunterpayne 9mo ago
This isn't correct. This is only true when the battery is first manufactured just like with Li-ion. Once the battery starts functioning, it is ionized metallic Sodium. All the volatility of Na but with corrosion too. There is no Chlorine nor any other halogen in there to engage in an ionic bond. In short, once the battery is functioning, the trick used to keep the Na in an ionic bond stops working (by design). After all, the ionic bond would prevent the battery from functioning. It should be noted that most manufactures aren't doing pure Na-ion. They are mixing in a little Na with the Li to stretch Li supplies and gather data on the impact of the increased volatility on safety. I wouldn't expect their first use to be in cars. I would expect them to be in grid stabilizing batteries.
- margalabargala 9mo ago
  I was sure you were wrong so I went and did some reading and, you're right. I'm wrong. I was thinking of the aqueous sodium ion batteries, which do not have the issues described. I thought those were the ones that are commercially available, but that's not the case.
  - hunterpayne 9mo ago
    Kudos on being big enough and actually caring about accuracy.
    - rkagerer 9mo ago
      This chain is an example of why I love HN so much.
  - aixpert 9mo ago
    you deserve a high value metal medal
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- Tade0 9mo ago
  Isn't there very little free sodium in such batteries? At any point in time most of it should be intercalated in one or the other electrode, no?
SapporoChris 9mo ago
Morton salt is currently owned by Stone Canyon Industries which is a holding company. https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/STNE/ https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/STNE/
- RupertSalt 9mo ago
  In ancient times, salt developed an extraordinary reputation. Not only was it prized as a preservative, but it was a nutritious seasoning as well. Salt had great value, and much of that nutritional value could be ascribed to the trace minerals which it carried as it was mined or otherwise harvested. Nowadays, the manufacturers of refined table salt present you with a digusting proposition: sprinkle this worthless elemental sodium-chloride onto your food, because it is "salt" and they are 100% trading on its ancient reputation. Perhaps it is better to simply trample it underfoot? Unfortunately, all the trace minerals are missing from refined salt. That pure white, homogeneous, translucent quality gives it away. The refining of salt is done purposefully, because the trace minerals are more valuable to supplement vendors. All those trace minerals are separated out and sold out to companies who will assemble them into expensive dietary supplements. Your magnesium, and selenium, and zinc that you pay $30 a bottle for. And that is also why sodium has such a nasty reputation in 2026. If you get CVD then you avoid sodium. If you get hypertension then you avoid sodium. Sodium is avoided like the plague. No physician will recommend sodium or table salt for a diet! Why should they? Adding sodium no longer introduces trace minerals or nutrition, it only introduces saltiness. It is still possible to find unrefined salt. It may be sold as "sea salt" or "kosher salt" but you'll need to find it in transparent packaging. If it contains impurities that look like pepper or dirt, then it is unrefined. If it is imprinted with the obligatory fake warning about iodide, then it may be unrefined. (The mandatory FDA "iodide" warning is not only fake, it's misleading and downright malicious.) Good luck with your salt! With love from your eponysterical HN noob!
  - SapporoChris 9mo ago
    You lifted most of your quote from https://www.navmi.co.in/difference-between-refined-salt-and-unrefined-salt/ https://www.navmi.co.in/difference-between-refined-salt-and-... without citing your source. However, the information is false. The amount of nutrients in unrefined salt is negligible. Yes it contains trace minerals but not in any significant quantity.

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]

SapporoChris 9mo ago

CATL has been producing Sodium-ion batteries since 2022. As CATL has continued to produce and introduce new Sodium-ion batteries, it appears they might have a solved the issue with volatility. If they have not solved the problem, I still wouldn't recommend shorting any companies. Shorting a stock and waiting for years for it to drop is not a great strategy.

CamperBob2 9mo ago

Think of it this way, Sodium metal is abundant and cheap with 30x the energy storage (and energy transfer) of other solutions yet nobody has used it in almost any product ever (including as a coolant). Huh? See https://www.terrapower.com/natrium/ https://www.terrapower.com/natrium/ -- and it's not exactly a new idea. Also not uncommon to use sodium-filled exhaust valves in car, motorcycle, and aircraft engines.