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is this à replacement for docker ? Super interesting that they're using swift. Does this mean the project is only a wrapper for system libraries ? I can't imag

by bsaul 8mo ago

is this à replacement for docker ? Super interesting that they're using swift. Does this mean the project is only a wrapper for system libraries ? I can't imagine writing low-level system code in swift yet.

bahador 8mo ago
> A tool for creating and running Linux containers using lightweight virtual machines on a Mac. It is written in Swift, and optimized for Apple silicon. apple.github.io/container/documentation/
ironhaven 8mo ago
I was going to rant about how containerization does not just mean Linux namespaces but that is what this is. This project is very similar to docker with a background daemon server that you control via a cli to launch Linux containers. Because Linux containers need Linux namespaces, each container is run in a virtual machine with a Linux kernel.
- lxgr 8mo ago
  They don't just need Linux namespaces, they need the rest of Linux too! That's the ABI all software in OCI containers expects.
  - pjmlp 8mo ago
    Not really, Windows containers do exist.
    - lxgr 8mo ago
      Yes, but GP was talking about Linux containers.
      - pjmlp 8mo ago
        > That's the ABI all software in OCI containers expects. Windows containers also use OCI format.
        lxgr 8mo ago
        Yes, those aren't Linux OCI containers, and those are the kind of OCI containers this thread is about.
- wpm 8mo ago
  I'm surprised that given Apples love of sandboxing, especially on iOS, that XNU doesn't have something similar to namespaces or jails.
  - bjoli 8mo ago
    IIRC they went for policy based sandboxing with Seatnelt and SIRP. That is pretty darn nice for gui apps, but not very good for things like containers.
timsneath 8mo ago
Swift goes further down the stack than you might at first imagine -- there's a lot of Swift written at Apple even in places where you might expect C. The container CLI tool wraps the underlying Containerization framework, which in turn vends packages for things like EXT4 file system support -- all written in Swift. Here's one example as a jumping off point. https://github.com/apple/containerization/blob/main/Sources/ContainerizationEXT4/EXT4%2BReader.swift https://github.com/apple/containerization/blob/main/Sources/...
nsonha 8mo ago
yes, it creates a microvm (using vz) per container though. Good if you need that kind of isolation, otherwise a little wasteful.
pjmlp 8mo ago
From Apple's point of view it is perfectly fine for such purposes. > From its earliest conception, Swift was built to be fast. Using the incredibly high-performance LLVM compiler technology, Swift code is transformed into optimized machine code that gets the most out of modern hardware. The syntax and standard library have also been tuned to make the most obvious way to write your code also perform the best whether it runs in the watch on your wrist or across a cluster of servers. And Swift is the best choice to succeed C++. It includes low-level primitives such as types, flow control, and operators, and provides object-oriented features such as classes, protocols, and generics. > Swift is efficient enough to be used in constrained environments like embedded devices, and powerful enough to scale all the way up to servers and cloud infrastructure. -- https://developer.apple.com/swift/ https://developer.apple.com/swift/ From my point of view, if Go does it, Swift is much better at the same game.

by bsaul 8mo ago

bahador 8mo ago

> A tool for creating and running Linux containers using lightweight virtual machines on a Mac. It is written in Swift, and optimized for Apple silicon. apple.github.io/container/documentation/

ironhaven 8mo ago

I was going to rant about how containerization does not just mean Linux namespaces but that is what this is. This project is very similar to docker with a background daemon server that you control via a cli to launch Linux containers. Because Linux containers need Linux namespaces, each container is run in a virtual machine with a Linux kernel.

lxgr 8mo ago
They don't just need Linux namespaces, they need the rest of Linux too! That's the ABI all software in OCI containers expects.
- pjmlp 8mo ago
  Not really, Windows containers do exist.
  - lxgr 8mo ago
    Yes, but GP was talking about Linux containers.
    - pjmlp 8mo ago
      > That's the ABI all software in OCI containers expects. Windows containers also use OCI format.
      - lxgr 8mo ago
        Yes, those aren't Linux OCI containers, and those are the kind of OCI containers this thread is about.
wpm 8mo ago
I'm surprised that given Apples love of sandboxing, especially on iOS, that XNU doesn't have something similar to namespaces or jails.
- bjoli 8mo ago
  IIRC they went for policy based sandboxing with Seatnelt and SIRP. That is pretty darn nice for gui apps, but not very good for things like containers.

timsneath 8mo ago

Swift goes further down the stack than you might at first imagine -- there's a lot of Swift written at Apple even in places where you might expect C. The container CLI tool wraps the underlying Containerization framework, which in turn vends packages for things like EXT4 file system support -- all written in Swift. Here's one example as a jumping off point. https://github.com/apple/containerization/blob/main/Sources/ContainerizationEXT4/EXT4%2BReader.swift https://github.com/apple/containerization/blob/main/Sources/...

nsonha 8mo ago

yes, it creates a microvm (using vz) per container though. Good if you need that kind of isolation, otherwise a little wasteful.

pjmlp 8mo ago

From Apple's point of view it is perfectly fine for such purposes. > From its earliest conception, Swift was built to be fast. Using the incredibly high-performance LLVM compiler technology, Swift code is transformed into optimized machine code that gets the most out of modern hardware. The syntax and standard library have also been tuned to make the most obvious way to write your code also perform the best whether it runs in the watch on your wrist or across a cluster of servers. And Swift is the best choice to succeed C++. It includes low-level primitives such as types, flow control, and operators, and provides object-oriented features such as classes, protocols, and generics. > Swift is efficient enough to be used in constrained environments like embedded devices, and powerful enough to scale all the way up to servers and cloud infrastructure. -- https://developer.apple.com/swift/ https://developer.apple.com/swift/ From my point of view, if Go does it, Swift is much better at the same game.