5 ms·

What I wanted to know from the article: The CATL Naxtra sodium-ion battery will debut in the Changan Nevo A06 sedan, delivering an estimated range of around

What I wanted to know from the article: The CATL Naxtra sodium-ion battery will debut in the Changan Nevo A06 sedan, delivering an estimated range of around 400 kilometers (249 miles) on the China Light-Duty Test Cycle. and It delivers 175 watt-hours per kilogram of energy density, which is lower than nickel-rich chemistries but roughly on par with LFP

johanvts 8mo ago
Thanks, I wanted to know about price. Isn't that the main benefit of sodium-ion. On par energy density with LFP, but a lot cheaper.
- PunchyHamster 8mo ago
  *potentially a lot cheaper. I've seen that repeated a lot but I still can't buy sodium batteries cheaper than lifepo...
  - wirybeige 8mo ago
    Sodium batteries don't yet have the scale that lifepo4 batteries have. I'd expect we will see them get cheaper.
- jbm 8mo ago
  I thought the price differential was not going to happen as there was a serious drop in the price of Lithium over the past year; but I looked it up and the lithium price drop is more a 5 year trend, with the last few months having a sudden surge in the price. https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium
  - hunterpayne 8mo ago
    Increased production of Lithium is why. However, that only drains the (very limited) reserves of Lithium more quickly. Currently we have about 75 years left of it at previous extraction rates. More could be found, that is unlikely.
    - lovich 8mo ago
      I thought there were a few massive lithium sources found in the past few years like the one in Thailand which have significantly increased our estimates?
      - hunterpayne 8mo ago
        Sure, but by like 2 years. Lithium is rare. It sits between Cobalt and Scandium on the list of abundance in Earth's crust. And the vast majority comes from one place in South America. They are always revising estimates up and down a bit. But Li demand just keeps rising and rising. And a single grid scale battery takes 10 years of current Li-ion battery production worldwide to build. So do we have enough Li at current rates, sure. We don't have anywhere near enough to do anything like replacing even a fraction of FFs with renewables. I guess that's the real headline here. That's why people are experimenting with Na-ion. Putting it in a production car today, that seems...what's the word...homicidal. Making a grid stabilization battery (not for backup) with large amounts of space between cabinets to see what happens, that seems more wise.
        kgc 8mo ago
        That 10yr per grid scale battery estimate seems high since we have built many grid scale batteries as well as millions of EVs in recent history.
        hunterpayne 8mo ago
        We have many grid stabilization batteries. There are 0 grid scale backup systems. 1 year of worldwide Li-ion battery production could backup just California for about 90 minutes.
        vablings 8mo ago
        There are virtually zero singular grid scale power systems these days. It is a mix of CCGT, Solar, Wind and Nuclear.
- hunterpayne 8mo ago
  The main benefits are that Sodium is abundant, cheap and stores 30x the energy of Lithium per unit mass. The draw back is that when exposed to water it explodes with 30x the energy of Lithium. The other drawback is that it bursts into flame when exposed to air. Think of it this way, Sodium metal is abundant and cheap with 30x the energy storage (and energy transfer) of other solutions yet nobody has used it in almost any product ever (including as a coolant). The volatility of Sodium is why. Unless they have a solution to this, then I would be shorting whoever is insuring these batteries.
  - margalabargala 8mo ago
    Sodium ion batteries use sodium ions, like in table salt. They correctly are not named metallic sodium batteries. They are less fire prone than lithium batteries, even in locations containing air. You should also consider shorting Morton [0]. They sell sodium, combined with chlorine, one of the nastiest elements around! And for products that go in people's homes! On food! [0] https://www.mortonsalt.com/ https://www.mortonsalt.com/
    - hunterpayne 8mo ago
      This isn't correct. This is only true when the battery is first manufactured just like with Li-ion. Once the battery starts functioning, it is ionized metallic Sodium. All the volatility of Na but with corrosion too. There is no Chlorine nor any other halogen in there to engage in an ionic bond. In short, once the battery is functioning, the trick used to keep the Na in an ionic bond stops working (by design). After all, the ionic bond would prevent the battery from functioning. It should be noted that most manufactures aren't doing pure Na-ion. They are mixing in a little Na with the Li to stretch Li supplies and gather data on the impact of the increased volatility on safety. I wouldn't expect their first use to be in cars. I would expect them to be in grid stabilizing batteries.
      - margalabargala 8mo ago
        I was sure you were wrong so I went and did some reading and, you're right. I'm wrong. I was thinking of the aqueous sodium ion batteries, which do not have the issues described. I thought those were the ones that are commercially available, but that's not the case.

johanvts 8mo ago

Thanks, I wanted to know about price. Isn't that the main benefit of sodium-ion. On par energy density with LFP, but a lot cheaper.

PunchyHamster 8mo ago
*potentially a lot cheaper. I've seen that repeated a lot but I still can't buy sodium batteries cheaper than lifepo...
- wirybeige 8mo ago
  Sodium batteries don't yet have the scale that lifepo4 batteries have. I'd expect we will see them get cheaper.
jbm 8mo ago
I thought the price differential was not going to happen as there was a serious drop in the price of Lithium over the past year; but I looked it up and the lithium price drop is more a 5 year trend, with the last few months having a sudden surge in the price. https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium
- hunterpayne 8mo ago
  Increased production of Lithium is why. However, that only drains the (very limited) reserves of Lithium more quickly. Currently we have about 75 years left of it at previous extraction rates. More could be found, that is unlikely.
  - lovich 8mo ago
    I thought there were a few massive lithium sources found in the past few years like the one in Thailand which have significantly increased our estimates?
    - hunterpayne 8mo ago
      Sure, but by like 2 years. Lithium is rare. It sits between Cobalt and Scandium on the list of abundance in Earth's crust. And the vast majority comes from one place in South America. They are always revising estimates up and down a bit. But Li demand just keeps rising and rising. And a single grid scale battery takes 10 years of current Li-ion battery production worldwide to build. So do we have enough Li at current rates, sure. We don't have anywhere near enough to do anything like replacing even a fraction of FFs with renewables. I guess that's the real headline here. That's why people are experimenting with Na-ion. Putting it in a production car today, that seems...what's the word...homicidal. Making a grid stabilization battery (not for backup) with large amounts of space between cabinets to see what happens, that seems more wise.
      - kgc 8mo ago
        That 10yr per grid scale battery estimate seems high since we have built many grid scale batteries as well as millions of EVs in recent history.
        hunterpayne 8mo ago
        We have many grid stabilization batteries. There are 0 grid scale backup systems. 1 year of worldwide Li-ion battery production could backup just California for about 90 minutes.
        vablings 8mo ago
        There are virtually zero singular grid scale power systems these days. It is a mix of CCGT, Solar, Wind and Nuclear.
hunterpayne 8mo ago
The main benefits are that Sodium is abundant, cheap and stores 30x the energy of Lithium per unit mass. The draw back is that when exposed to water it explodes with 30x the energy of Lithium. The other drawback is that it bursts into flame when exposed to air. Think of it this way, Sodium metal is abundant and cheap with 30x the energy storage (and energy transfer) of other solutions yet nobody has used it in almost any product ever (including as a coolant). The volatility of Sodium is why. Unless they have a solution to this, then I would be shorting whoever is insuring these batteries.
- margalabargala 8mo ago
  Sodium ion batteries use sodium ions, like in table salt. They correctly are not named metallic sodium batteries. They are less fire prone than lithium batteries, even in locations containing air. You should also consider shorting Morton [0]. They sell sodium, combined with chlorine, one of the nastiest elements around! And for products that go in people's homes! On food! [0] https://www.mortonsalt.com/ https://www.mortonsalt.com/
  - hunterpayne 8mo ago
    This isn't correct. This is only true when the battery is first manufactured just like with Li-ion. Once the battery starts functioning, it is ionized metallic Sodium. All the volatility of Na but with corrosion too. There is no Chlorine nor any other halogen in there to engage in an ionic bond. In short, once the battery is functioning, the trick used to keep the Na in an ionic bond stops working (by design). After all, the ionic bond would prevent the battery from functioning. It should be noted that most manufactures aren't doing pure Na-ion. They are mixing in a little Na with the Li to stretch Li supplies and gather data on the impact of the increased volatility on safety. I wouldn't expect their first use to be in cars. I would expect them to be in grid stabilizing batteries.
    - margalabargala 8mo ago
      I was sure you were wrong so I went and did some reading and, you're right. I'm wrong. I was thinking of the aqueous sodium ion batteries, which do not have the issues described. I thought those were the ones that are commercially available, but that's not the case.