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> The first batches of Quake executables, quake.exe and vquake.exe were programmed on HP 712-60 running NeXT and cross-compiled with DJGPP running on a DEC Alph

by knorker 8mo ago

> The first batches of Quake executables, quake.exe and vquake.exe were programmed on HP 712-60 running NeXT and cross-compiled with DJGPP running on a DEC Alpha server 2100A. Is that accurate? I thought DJGPP only ran on and for PC compatible x86. ID had Alpha for things like running qbps and light and vis (these took for--ever to run, so the alpha SMP was really useful), but for building the actual DOS binaries, surely this was DJGPP on x86 PC? Was DJGPP able to run on Alpha for cross compilation? I'm skeptical, but I could be wrong. Edit: Actually it looks like you could. But did they? https://www.delorie.com/djgpp/v2faq/faq22_9.html https://www.delorie.com/djgpp/v2faq/faq22_9.html

qingcharles 8mo ago
I thought the same thing. There wouldn't be a huge advantage to cross-compiling in this instance since the target platform can happily run the compiler?
- frumplestlatz 8mo ago
  Running your builds on a much larger, higher performance server — using a real, decent, stable multi-user OS with proper networking — is a huge advantage.
  - knorker 8mo ago
    Yes, but the gains may be lost in the logistics of shipping the build binary back to the PC for actual execution. An incremental build of C (not C++) code is pretty fast, and was pretty fast back then too. In q1source.zip this article links to is only 198k lines spread across 384 files. The largest file is 3391 lines. Though the linked q1source.zip is QW and WinQuake, so not exactly the DJGPP build. (quote the README: "The original dos version of Quake should also be buildable from these sources, but we didn't bother trying"). It's just not that big a codebase, even by 1990s standards. It was written by just a small team of amazing coders. I mean correct me if you have actual data to prove me wrong, but my memory at the time is that build times were really not a problem. C is just really fast to build. Even back in, was it 1997, when the source code was found laying around on an ftp server or something: https://www.wired.com/1997/01/hackers-hack-crack-steal-quake/ https://www.wired.com/1997/01/hackers-hack-crack-steal-quake...
    - pdw 8mo ago
      "Shipping" wouldn't be a problem, they could just run it from a network drive. Their PCs were networked, they needed to test deathmatches after all ;) And the compilation speed difference wouldn't be small. The HP workstations they were using were "entry level" systems with (at max spec) a 100MHz CPU. Their Alpha server had four CPUs running at probably 275MHz. I know which system I would choose for compiles.
      - knorker 8mo ago
        > "Shipping" wouldn't be a problem, they could just run it from a network drive. This is exactly the shipping I'm talking about. The gains would be so miniscule (because, again, and incremental compile was never actually slow even on the PC) and the network overhead adds up. Especially back then. > just run it from a network drive. It still needs to be transferred to run. > I know which system I would choose for compiles. All else equal, perhaps. But were you actually a developer in the 90s?
        Borg3 8mo ago
        Whats the problem? 1997? They were probably using 10BaseTX network, its 10Mbit... Using Novel Netware would allow you to trasnfer data at 1MB/s.. quake.exe is < 0.5MB.. so trasnfer will take around 1 sec..
        knorker 8mo ago
        Not sure what you mean by "problem". I said miniscule cancels out miniscule.
        frumplestlatz 8mo ago
        Networking in that era was not a problem. I also don’t know why you’re so steadfast in claiming that builds on local PCs were anything but painfully slow. It’s also not just a question of local builds for development — people wanted centralized build servers to produce canonical regular builds. Given the choice between a PC and large Sun, DEC, or SGI hardware, the only rational choice was the big iron. To think that local builds were fast, and that networking was a problem, leads me to question either your memory, whether you were there, or if you simply had an extremely non-representative developer experience in the 90s.
fabiensanglard 8mo ago
I asked John Carmack and he told me they did. There is also an interview of Dave Tayor explicitly mentioning compiling Quake on the Alpha in 20s (source: https://www.gamers.org/dhs/usavisit/dallas.html#:~:text=compile%20Quake%20in%2020%20seconds). https://www.gamers.org/dhs/usavisit/dallas.html#:~:text=comp... I don't think he meant running qbsp or vis or light.
- knorker 8mo ago
  > he told me they did. This is when they (or at least Carmack) was doing development on Next? So were those the DOS builds?

by knorker 8mo ago

qingcharles 8mo ago

I thought the same thing. There wouldn't be a huge advantage to cross-compiling in this instance since the target platform can happily run the compiler?

frumplestlatz 8mo ago
Running your builds on a much larger, higher performance server — using a real, decent, stable multi-user OS with proper networking — is a huge advantage.
- knorker 8mo ago
  Yes, but the gains may be lost in the logistics of shipping the build binary back to the PC for actual execution. An incremental build of C (not C++) code is pretty fast, and was pretty fast back then too. In q1source.zip this article links to is only 198k lines spread across 384 files. The largest file is 3391 lines. Though the linked q1source.zip is QW and WinQuake, so not exactly the DJGPP build. (quote the README: "The original dos version of Quake should also be buildable from these sources, but we didn't bother trying"). It's just not that big a codebase, even by 1990s standards. It was written by just a small team of amazing coders. I mean correct me if you have actual data to prove me wrong, but my memory at the time is that build times were really not a problem. C is just really fast to build. Even back in, was it 1997, when the source code was found laying around on an ftp server or something: https://www.wired.com/1997/01/hackers-hack-crack-steal-quake/ https://www.wired.com/1997/01/hackers-hack-crack-steal-quake...
  - pdw 8mo ago
    "Shipping" wouldn't be a problem, they could just run it from a network drive. Their PCs were networked, they needed to test deathmatches after all ;) And the compilation speed difference wouldn't be small. The HP workstations they were using were "entry level" systems with (at max spec) a 100MHz CPU. Their Alpha server had four CPUs running at probably 275MHz. I know which system I would choose for compiles.
    - knorker 8mo ago
      > "Shipping" wouldn't be a problem, they could just run it from a network drive. This is exactly the shipping I'm talking about. The gains would be so miniscule (because, again, and incremental compile was never actually slow even on the PC) and the network overhead adds up. Especially back then. > just run it from a network drive. It still needs to be transferred to run. > I know which system I would choose for compiles. All else equal, perhaps. But were you actually a developer in the 90s?
      - Borg3 8mo ago
        Whats the problem? 1997? They were probably using 10BaseTX network, its 10Mbit... Using Novel Netware would allow you to trasnfer data at 1MB/s.. quake.exe is < 0.5MB.. so trasnfer will take around 1 sec..
        knorker 8mo ago
        Not sure what you mean by "problem". I said miniscule cancels out miniscule.
        frumplestlatz 8mo ago
        Networking in that era was not a problem. I also don’t know why you’re so steadfast in claiming that builds on local PCs were anything but painfully slow. It’s also not just a question of local builds for development — people wanted centralized build servers to produce canonical regular builds. Given the choice between a PC and large Sun, DEC, or SGI hardware, the only rational choice was the big iron. To think that local builds were fast, and that networking was a problem, leads me to question either your memory, whether you were there, or if you simply had an extremely non-representative developer experience in the 90s.

fabiensanglard 8mo ago

I asked John Carmack and he told me they did. There is also an interview of Dave Tayor explicitly mentioning compiling Quake on the Alpha in 20s (source: https://www.gamers.org/dhs/usavisit/dallas.html#:~:text=compile%20Quake%20in%2020%20seconds). https://www.gamers.org/dhs/usavisit/dallas.html#:~:text=comp... I don't think he meant running qbsp or vis or light.

knorker 8mo ago
> he told me they did. This is when they (or at least Carmack) was doing development on Next? So were those the DOS builds?