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Indeed. Still, what good is free energy to anyone if the retail price has only one trajectory. If politics is a significant cost factor, no amount of technolo

Indeed. Still, what good is free energy to anyone if the retail price has only one trajectory. If politics is a significant cost factor, no amount of technology is going to fix that. Or, as Jimmy Carr put it: But you go, yeah, you can have net zero, as long as you don't give a fuck about poor people, right? If you don't give a fuck about poor people, of course we can do net zero. - https://youtu.be/H3FwqPkPSHE https://youtu.be/H3FwqPkPSHE

adrianN 8mo ago
Poor people are hit hardest by the effects of climate change.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8mo ago
  Empathy isn’t universal. I care less about poor people in poor countries in far away lands, and far away times, than I do my fellow citizens in my relatively wealthy country. And my fellow citizens, especially the low income folk, are affected everyday by high energy costs. High energy costs result in higher costs of everything. Whereas the effects of climate change, to the extent that they’re distinguishable from extreme weather events at all, are largely tolerated by even the poorest here in Australia. High energy costs makes extreme weather events less tolerable.
  - adrianN 8mo ago
    It is good then that renewable energy is cheap. There are a million things countries can do to help poor people. Burning fossil fuels is very far down the list.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8mo ago
      > that renewable energy is cheap Where is this the case? There is what? Approximately nowhere with high renewables penetration and cheap retail energy prices. Australia has so much coal and gas we could have electricity plans similar to data plans: all you can reasonably consume for $80 a month, and it would still make approximately zero difference to global anthropogenic carbon emissions. We’re plenty happy for everyone else to burn our LNG and coal. Our LNG is cheap the Japanese even resell it a profit.[1] Instead, we have high renewables penetration and electricity prices that have increased at a rate three times higher than general inflation. 1. https://ieefa.org/resources/how-japan-cashes-resales-australian-lng-expense-australian-gas-users https://ieefa.org/resources/how-japan-cashes-resales-austral...
      - adrianN 8mo ago
        You’re replying in a thread about energy prices dropping because of renewable energy.
        TheSpiceIsLife 8mo ago
        Do you accept that wholesale electricity prices in Australia can be wildly disconnected from residential retail prices? Do you accept I am an Australian resident retail customer telling you I am not seeing any change in my $/kWh price, nor any offers from my any providers offering lower prices and higher solar input price than the plan I’m on now. It doesn’t matter if wholesale prices are zero unless energy retailers are willing to compete to drive prices lower. And they’re not. It’s a regulated market here in Australia.
        adrianN 8mo ago
        If somebody comes up with a way to produce wheat cheaply, do you blame them for high bread prices?
        nandomrumber 8mo ago
        Energy retailers in Australia are literally just a billing interface and a poor excuse for a call centre. They’re not really adding value in the same way a farm & associated agribusiness > harvest > global storage and distribution > mill > commercial scale bakery > distribution > retail outlet does. This reminds me of an amusing comment I read or heard the other day: eggs are now more expensive than chickens. Somethings not right there. And it’s mostly higher costs of energy, and extremely stupid egg production regulations.
        adrianN 8mo ago
        I fail to see how the blame is on renewable energy and how burning more fossil fuels would help in that situation.
Retric 8mo ago
And he’s just wrong. > what good is free energy to anyone if the retail price has only one trajectory. The underlying economics means someone is always paying for that, you can pay for more expensive fossil fuels in your taxes or on your electric bill but it’s going to happen either way. Granted we have a legacy of fossil fuel, nuclear, and yes early renewable projects but if you have zero subsidies of any kind going forward we get to a 100% emissions free grid because today that’s the cheapest option, Burning fossil fuels has had an over a century of technical development and global scale it isn’t getting dramatically better to catch up it just loses and renewables just keep getting more appealing over time.
hedora 8mo ago
What was his point? If he'd been more specific, his comment would be true: "If you don't give a fuck about [extracting revenue from poor serfs], of course we can do net zero." If we lived in a more just society, we'd mandate community net metering: This is the idea that (say) a city block can build a solar/wind farm anywhere within a few dozen miles of itself, and then have their bills proportionally reduced by the amount of power that farm produces. It enables interesting economic models, like "the community takes out a 30 year mortgage to build + maintain the farm in exchange for an immediate halving of their electricity bills", or having trade schools offer free/cheap electrician programs that include apprenticeships building such farms. (See also: Habitat for Humanity.)

adrianN 8mo ago

Poor people are hit hardest by the effects of climate change.

TheSpiceIsLife 8mo ago
Empathy isn’t universal. I care less about poor people in poor countries in far away lands, and far away times, than I do my fellow citizens in my relatively wealthy country. And my fellow citizens, especially the low income folk, are affected everyday by high energy costs. High energy costs result in higher costs of everything. Whereas the effects of climate change, to the extent that they’re distinguishable from extreme weather events at all, are largely tolerated by even the poorest here in Australia. High energy costs makes extreme weather events less tolerable.
- adrianN 8mo ago
  It is good then that renewable energy is cheap. There are a million things countries can do to help poor people. Burning fossil fuels is very far down the list.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8mo ago
    > that renewable energy is cheap Where is this the case? There is what? Approximately nowhere with high renewables penetration and cheap retail energy prices. Australia has so much coal and gas we could have electricity plans similar to data plans: all you can reasonably consume for $80 a month, and it would still make approximately zero difference to global anthropogenic carbon emissions. We’re plenty happy for everyone else to burn our LNG and coal. Our LNG is cheap the Japanese even resell it a profit.[1] Instead, we have high renewables penetration and electricity prices that have increased at a rate three times higher than general inflation. 1. https://ieefa.org/resources/how-japan-cashes-resales-australian-lng-expense-australian-gas-users https://ieefa.org/resources/how-japan-cashes-resales-austral...
    - adrianN 8mo ago
      You’re replying in a thread about energy prices dropping because of renewable energy.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 8mo ago
        Do you accept that wholesale electricity prices in Australia can be wildly disconnected from residential retail prices? Do you accept I am an Australian resident retail customer telling you I am not seeing any change in my $/kWh price, nor any offers from my any providers offering lower prices and higher solar input price than the plan I’m on now. It doesn’t matter if wholesale prices are zero unless energy retailers are willing to compete to drive prices lower. And they’re not. It’s a regulated market here in Australia.
        adrianN 8mo ago
        If somebody comes up with a way to produce wheat cheaply, do you blame them for high bread prices?
        nandomrumber 8mo ago
        Energy retailers in Australia are literally just a billing interface and a poor excuse for a call centre. They’re not really adding value in the same way a farm & associated agribusiness > harvest > global storage and distribution > mill > commercial scale bakery > distribution > retail outlet does. This reminds me of an amusing comment I read or heard the other day: eggs are now more expensive than chickens. Somethings not right there. And it’s mostly higher costs of energy, and extremely stupid egg production regulations.
        adrianN 8mo ago
        I fail to see how the blame is on renewable energy and how burning more fossil fuels would help in that situation.

Retric 8mo ago

And he’s just wrong. > what good is free energy to anyone if the retail price has only one trajectory. The underlying economics means someone is always paying for that, you can pay for more expensive fossil fuels in your taxes or on your electric bill but it’s going to happen either way. Granted we have a legacy of fossil fuel, nuclear, and yes early renewable projects but if you have zero subsidies of any kind going forward we get to a 100% emissions free grid because today that’s the cheapest option, Burning fossil fuels has had an over a century of technical development and global scale it isn’t getting dramatically better to catch up it just loses and renewables just keep getting more appealing over time.

hedora 8mo ago

What was his point? If he'd been more specific, his comment would be true: "If you don't give a fuck about [extracting revenue from poor serfs], of course we can do net zero." If we lived in a more just society, we'd mandate community net metering: This is the idea that (say) a city block can build a solar/wind farm anywhere within a few dozen miles of itself, and then have their bills proportionally reduced by the amount of power that farm produces. It enables interesting economic models, like "the community takes out a 30 year mortgage to build + maintain the farm in exchange for an immediate halving of their electricity bills", or having trade schools offer free/cheap electrician programs that include apprenticeships building such farms. (See also: Habitat for Humanity.)