3 ms·

> I don't think I am. If you ask an LLM for a burger web site, you will get a burger web site. That's the only category that matters. If one burger website gen

by mjr00 8mo ago

> I don't think I am. If you ask an LLM for a burger web site, you will get a burger web site. That's the only category that matters. If one burger website generated uses PHP and the other is plain javascript, which completely changes the way the website has to be hosted--this category matters quite a bit, no?

hackyhacky 8mo ago
> which completely changes the way the website has to be hosted--this category matters quite a bit, no? It matters to you because you're a programmer, and you can't imagine how someone could create a program without being a programmer. But it doesn't really matter. The non-technical user of the LLM won't care if the LLM generates PHP or JS code, because they don't care how it gets hosted. They'll tell the LLM to take care of it, and it will. Or more likely, the user won't even know what the word "hosting" means, they'll simply ask the LLM to make a website and publish it, and the LLM takes care of all the details.
- mjr00 8mo ago
  Is the LLM paying for hosting in this scenario, too? Is the LLM signing up for the new hosting provider that supports PHP after initially deploying to github pages? Feels like the non-programmer is going to care a little bit about paying for 5 different hosting providers because the LLM decided to generate their burger website in PHP, JavaScript, Python, Ruby and Perl in successive iterations.
  - hackyhacky 8mo ago
    > Is the LLM paying for hosting in this scenario, too? Is the LLM signing up for the new hosting provider that supports PHP after initially deploying to github pages? It's an implementation detail. The user doesn't care. OpenClaw can buy its own hosting if you ask it to. > Feels like the non-programmer is going to care a little bit about paying for 5 different hosting providers because the LLM decided to generate their burger website in PHP, JavaScript, Python, Ruby and Perl in successive iterations. There's this cool new program that the kids are using. It's called Docker. You should check it out.
    - mjr00 8mo ago
      How's the non-programmer going to tell the LLM to use Docker? They don't know what Docker is. How do you guarantee that the prompt "make me a burger website" results in a Docker container?
      - hackyhacky 8mo ago
        > How's the non-programmer going to tell the LLM to use Docker? They don't know what Docker is. At this point, I think you are intentionally missing the point. The non-programmer doesn't need to know about Docker, or race conditions, or memory leaks, or virtual functions. The programmer says "make me a web site" and the LLM figures it out. It will use an appropriate language and appropriate libraries. If appropriate, it will use Docker, and if not, it won't. If the non-programmer wants to change hosting, he can say so, and the LLM will change the hosting. The level of abstraction goes up. The details that we've spent our lives thinking about are no longer relevant. It's really not that complicated.
        mjr00 8mo ago
        How does the non-programmer know about hosting? They just want a burger site. What's hosting? Is that like Facebook? To maybe get out of this loop: your entire thesis is that nonfunctional requirements don't matter, which is a silly assertion. Anyone who has done any kind of software development work knows that nonfunctional requirements are important, which is why they exist in the first place.
        skydhash 8mo ago
        Yeah, in most swe roles, you got some task from the PM that describe a new features. But you were not hired to just translate the ticket to code. More often, it’s your responsibility to figure out all those non-functional requirements, like don’t break anything that is currently working. More often, the issue with legacy code is not that you don’t know how to make a change, it’s because you don’t know if and how it will blow up after making it.
        8mo ago
raincole 8mo ago
> this category matters quite a bit, no? No. Put yourself in the shoes of the owner of the burger restaurant (who only heard the term "JavaScript" twice in his life and vaguely remember it's probably something related to "Java", which he heard three times) and you'll know why the answer is no.
- mjr00 8mo ago
  I put myself in the shoes of the burger restaurant owner. I vibe coded a website. Sweet. I talk to my cousin who's doing the web hosting and he says he can't host a "Pee Haich Pee" site. I don't know what that is. Suddenly the thing that didn't matter actually really fucking matters This is like saying it doesn't matter if your pipes are iron, lead or PVC because you don't see them. They all move water and shit where they need to be, so no problem. Ignorance is bliss I guess? Plumbers are obsolete!
  - hackyhacky 8mo ago
    > I talk to my cousin who's doing the web hosting and he says he can't host a "Pee Haich Pee" site I already addressed this exact argument in another comment. In short: hosting is an implementation detail. The LLM can solve this problem just like any coding bug. The user can give his cousin's email to the LLM, which will solve the issue by finding better hosting, rewriting the program in another language, or using Docker. Hosting is not a hard problem to solve, compared to other issues.
    - mjr00 8mo ago
      > The user can give his cousin's email to the LLM, which will solve the issue by finding better hosting, rewriting the program in another language, or using Docker. Can you please point to a currently available LLM that can do this?
      - hackyhacky 8mo ago
        Openclaw

by mjr00 8mo ago

hackyhacky 8mo ago

> which completely changes the way the website has to be hosted--this category matters quite a bit, no? It matters to you because you're a programmer, and you can't imagine how someone could create a program without being a programmer. But it doesn't really matter. The non-technical user of the LLM won't care if the LLM generates PHP or JS code, because they don't care how it gets hosted. They'll tell the LLM to take care of it, and it will. Or more likely, the user won't even know what the word "hosting" means, they'll simply ask the LLM to make a website and publish it, and the LLM takes care of all the details.

mjr00 8mo ago
Is the LLM paying for hosting in this scenario, too? Is the LLM signing up for the new hosting provider that supports PHP after initially deploying to github pages? Feels like the non-programmer is going to care a little bit about paying for 5 different hosting providers because the LLM decided to generate their burger website in PHP, JavaScript, Python, Ruby and Perl in successive iterations.
- hackyhacky 8mo ago
  > Is the LLM paying for hosting in this scenario, too? Is the LLM signing up for the new hosting provider that supports PHP after initially deploying to github pages? It's an implementation detail. The user doesn't care. OpenClaw can buy its own hosting if you ask it to. > Feels like the non-programmer is going to care a little bit about paying for 5 different hosting providers because the LLM decided to generate their burger website in PHP, JavaScript, Python, Ruby and Perl in successive iterations. There's this cool new program that the kids are using. It's called Docker. You should check it out.
  - mjr00 8mo ago
    How's the non-programmer going to tell the LLM to use Docker? They don't know what Docker is. How do you guarantee that the prompt "make me a burger website" results in a Docker container?
    - hackyhacky 8mo ago
      > How's the non-programmer going to tell the LLM to use Docker? They don't know what Docker is. At this point, I think you are intentionally missing the point. The non-programmer doesn't need to know about Docker, or race conditions, or memory leaks, or virtual functions. The programmer says "make me a web site" and the LLM figures it out. It will use an appropriate language and appropriate libraries. If appropriate, it will use Docker, and if not, it won't. If the non-programmer wants to change hosting, he can say so, and the LLM will change the hosting. The level of abstraction goes up. The details that we've spent our lives thinking about are no longer relevant. It's really not that complicated.
      - mjr00 8mo ago
        How does the non-programmer know about hosting? They just want a burger site. What's hosting? Is that like Facebook? To maybe get out of this loop: your entire thesis is that nonfunctional requirements don't matter, which is a silly assertion. Anyone who has done any kind of software development work knows that nonfunctional requirements are important, which is why they exist in the first place.
        skydhash 8mo ago
        Yeah, in most swe roles, you got some task from the PM that describe a new features. But you were not hired to just translate the ticket to code. More often, it’s your responsibility to figure out all those non-functional requirements, like don’t break anything that is currently working. More often, the issue with legacy code is not that you don’t know how to make a change, it’s because you don’t know if and how it will blow up after making it.
      - 8mo ago

raincole 8mo ago

> this category matters quite a bit, no? No. Put yourself in the shoes of the owner of the burger restaurant (who only heard the term "JavaScript" twice in his life and vaguely remember it's probably something related to "Java", which he heard three times) and you'll know why the answer is no.

mjr00 8mo ago
I put myself in the shoes of the burger restaurant owner. I vibe coded a website. Sweet. I talk to my cousin who's doing the web hosting and he says he can't host a "Pee Haich Pee" site. I don't know what that is. Suddenly the thing that didn't matter actually really fucking matters This is like saying it doesn't matter if your pipes are iron, lead or PVC because you don't see them. They all move water and shit where they need to be, so no problem. Ignorance is bliss I guess? Plumbers are obsolete!
- hackyhacky 8mo ago
  > I talk to my cousin who's doing the web hosting and he says he can't host a "Pee Haich Pee" site I already addressed this exact argument in another comment. In short: hosting is an implementation detail. The LLM can solve this problem just like any coding bug. The user can give his cousin's email to the LLM, which will solve the issue by finding better hosting, rewriting the program in another language, or using Docker. Hosting is not a hard problem to solve, compared to other issues.
  - mjr00 8mo ago
    > The user can give his cousin's email to the LLM, which will solve the issue by finding better hosting, rewriting the program in another language, or using Docker. Can you please point to a currently available LLM that can do this?
    - hackyhacky 8mo ago
      Openclaw