4 ms·

> You're making several category errors w/ your comparison. I don't think I am. If you ask an LLM for a burger web site, you will get a burger web site. That'

> You're making several category errors w/ your comparison. I don't think I am. If you ask an LLM for a burger web site, you will get a burger web site. That's the only category that matters.

measurablefunc 8mo ago
I think you are b/c you lack actual understanding of how compilers work & what it would mean to compile the same C code w/ two different conformant C compilers & get semantically different results.
- hackyhacky 8mo ago
  > you lack actual understanding of how compilers work My brother in Christ, please get off your condescending horse. I have written compilers. I know how they work. And also you've apparently never heard of undefined behavior. The point is that the output is different at the assembly level, but that doesn't matter to the user. Just as output from an LLM but differ from another, but the user doesn't care.
  - measurablefunc 8mo ago
    You don't sound like you have written any code at all actually. What you do sound like is someone who is pretending like they know what it means to program which happens a lot on the internet.
    - hackyhacky 8mo ago
      > You don't sound like you have written any code at all actually Well, you sound like an ignorant troll who came here to insult people and start fights. Which also happens a lot on the internet. Take your abrasive ego somewhere else. HN is not for you.
      - measurablefunc 8mo ago
        I don't care what I sound like to people who front about their programming skills. I'm not here to impress people like you.
  - runarberg 8mo ago
    Undefined behavior is a edge case in C. Other programing languages (like JavaScript) goes to great lengths in defining their standards such that it is almost impossible to write code with undefined behavior. By far majority of code written out there has no undefined behavior. I think it is safe to assume that everyone here (except you) are talking about C code without undefined behavior when we mean that the same code produces the same results regardless of the compiler (as long as the compiler is standards conforming).
    - hackyhacky 8mo ago
      Language-based undefined behavior is just one kind of nondeterminism that programmers deal with every day. There are other examples, such as concurrency. So that claim that using LLMs isn't programming because "nondeterminism" makes no sense.
      - runarberg 8mo ago
        > Language-based undefined behavior is just one kind of nondeterminism that programmers deal with every day. Every day you say. I program every day, and I have never, in my 20 years of programming, on purpose written in undefined behavior. I think you may be exaggerating a bit here. I mean, sure, some leet programmers do dabble in the undefined behavior, they may even rely on some compiler bug for some extreme edge case during code golf. Whatever. However it is not uncommon when enough programmers start relying on undefined behavior behaving in a certain way, that it later becomes a part of the standard and is therefor no longer “undefined behavior”. Like I said in a different thread, I suspect you may be willfully ignorant about this. I suspect you actually know the difference between: a) written instructions compiled into machine code for the machine to perform, and, b) output of a statistical model, that may or may not include written instructions of (a). There are a million reasons to claim (a) is not like (b), the fact that (a) is (mostly; or rather desirably) deterministic, while (b) is stochastic is only one (albeit a very good) reason.
mjr00 8mo ago
> I don't think I am. If you ask an LLM for a burger web site, you will get a burger web site. That's the only category that matters. If one burger website generated uses PHP and the other is plain javascript, which completely changes the way the website has to be hosted--this category matters quite a bit, no?
- hackyhacky 8mo ago
  > which completely changes the way the website has to be hosted--this category matters quite a bit, no? It matters to you because you're a programmer, and you can't imagine how someone could create a program without being a programmer. But it doesn't really matter. The non-technical user of the LLM won't care if the LLM generates PHP or JS code, because they don't care how it gets hosted. They'll tell the LLM to take care of it, and it will. Or more likely, the user won't even know what the word "hosting" means, they'll simply ask the LLM to make a website and publish it, and the LLM takes care of all the details.
  - mjr00 8mo ago
    Is the LLM paying for hosting in this scenario, too? Is the LLM signing up for the new hosting provider that supports PHP after initially deploying to github pages? Feels like the non-programmer is going to care a little bit about paying for 5 different hosting providers because the LLM decided to generate their burger website in PHP, JavaScript, Python, Ruby and Perl in successive iterations.
    - hackyhacky 8mo ago
      > Is the LLM paying for hosting in this scenario, too? Is the LLM signing up for the new hosting provider that supports PHP after initially deploying to github pages? It's an implementation detail. The user doesn't care. OpenClaw can buy its own hosting if you ask it to. > Feels like the non-programmer is going to care a little bit about paying for 5 different hosting providers because the LLM decided to generate their burger website in PHP, JavaScript, Python, Ruby and Perl in successive iterations. There's this cool new program that the kids are using. It's called Docker. You should check it out.

> You're making several category errors w/ your comparison. I don't think I am. If you ask an LLM for a burger web site, you will get a burger web site. That's the only category that matters.

measurablefunc 8mo ago

I think you are b/c you lack actual understanding of how compilers work & what it would mean to compile the same C code w/ two different conformant C compilers & get semantically different results.

hackyhacky 8mo ago
> you lack actual understanding of how compilers work My brother in Christ, please get off your condescending horse. I have written compilers. I know how they work. And also you've apparently never heard of undefined behavior. The point is that the output is different at the assembly level, but that doesn't matter to the user. Just as output from an LLM but differ from another, but the user doesn't care.
- measurablefunc 8mo ago
  You don't sound like you have written any code at all actually. What you do sound like is someone who is pretending like they know what it means to program which happens a lot on the internet.
  - hackyhacky 8mo ago
    > You don't sound like you have written any code at all actually Well, you sound like an ignorant troll who came here to insult people and start fights. Which also happens a lot on the internet. Take your abrasive ego somewhere else. HN is not for you.
    - measurablefunc 8mo ago
      I don't care what I sound like to people who front about their programming skills. I'm not here to impress people like you.
- runarberg 8mo ago
  Undefined behavior is a edge case in C. Other programing languages (like JavaScript) goes to great lengths in defining their standards such that it is almost impossible to write code with undefined behavior. By far majority of code written out there has no undefined behavior. I think it is safe to assume that everyone here (except you) are talking about C code without undefined behavior when we mean that the same code produces the same results regardless of the compiler (as long as the compiler is standards conforming).
  - hackyhacky 8mo ago
    Language-based undefined behavior is just one kind of nondeterminism that programmers deal with every day. There are other examples, such as concurrency. So that claim that using LLMs isn't programming because "nondeterminism" makes no sense.
    - runarberg 8mo ago
      > Language-based undefined behavior is just one kind of nondeterminism that programmers deal with every day. Every day you say. I program every day, and I have never, in my 20 years of programming, on purpose written in undefined behavior. I think you may be exaggerating a bit here. I mean, sure, some leet programmers do dabble in the undefined behavior, they may even rely on some compiler bug for some extreme edge case during code golf. Whatever. However it is not uncommon when enough programmers start relying on undefined behavior behaving in a certain way, that it later becomes a part of the standard and is therefor no longer “undefined behavior”. Like I said in a different thread, I suspect you may be willfully ignorant about this. I suspect you actually know the difference between: a) written instructions compiled into machine code for the machine to perform, and, b) output of a statistical model, that may or may not include written instructions of (a). There are a million reasons to claim (a) is not like (b), the fact that (a) is (mostly; or rather desirably) deterministic, while (b) is stochastic is only one (albeit a very good) reason.

mjr00 8mo ago

> I don't think I am. If you ask an LLM for a burger web site, you will get a burger web site. That's the only category that matters. If one burger website generated uses PHP and the other is plain javascript, which completely changes the way the website has to be hosted--this category matters quite a bit, no?

hackyhacky 8mo ago
> which completely changes the way the website has to be hosted--this category matters quite a bit, no? It matters to you because you're a programmer, and you can't imagine how someone could create a program without being a programmer. But it doesn't really matter. The non-technical user of the LLM won't care if the LLM generates PHP or JS code, because they don't care how it gets hosted. They'll tell the LLM to take care of it, and it will. Or more likely, the user won't even know what the word "hosting" means, they'll simply ask the LLM to make a website and publish it, and the LLM takes care of all the details.
- mjr00 8mo ago
  Is the LLM paying for hosting in this scenario, too? Is the LLM signing up for the new hosting provider that supports PHP after initially deploying to github pages? Feels like the non-programmer is going to care a little bit about paying for 5 different hosting providers because the LLM decided to generate their burger website in PHP, JavaScript, Python, Ruby and Perl in successive iterations.
  - hackyhacky 8mo ago
    > Is the LLM paying for hosting in this scenario, too? Is the LLM signing up for the new hosting provider that supports PHP after initially deploying to github pages? It's an implementation detail. The user doesn't care. OpenClaw can buy its own hosting if you ask it to. > Feels like the non-programmer is going to care a little bit about paying for 5 different hosting providers because the LLM decided to generate their burger website in PHP, JavaScript, Python, Ruby and Perl in successive iterations. There's this cool new program that the kids are using. It's called Docker. You should check it out.