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That's a type of capitalism. Quakers built plenty of capitalistic entities that were primarily interested in profit but cared more for the long term with more o

That's a type of capitalism. Quakers built plenty of capitalistic entities that were primarily interested in profit but cared more for the long term with more of an eye on social and spiritual purpose. Extractive capitalism doesn't get to pretend its all of capitalism, we just assume that because its been active throughout our entire lifespan. US hegemony has permitted and encouraged shareholder primacy, hostile takeovers and leveraged buyouts in order to facilitate the growth of its markets. However we'd be blinkered to assume that this is the only way capitalism can be. Its a choice we make and we deserve this outcome where we've enslaved a generation of children to be eye-balls for ad impressions for silicon valley startups. We could make other choices but then we'd be personally less rich and see less growth. Do we really think those extra zeros in very few people's portfolio's are worth this macabre world we've created?

saubeidl 8mo ago
I judge a system by what it does, not by what it's proponents say it could theoretically do. Extractive capitalism is real-world capitalism.
- Quarrelsome 8mo ago
  but it does that because of US hegemony empowering its equity to be extractive. We've lost a lot of organisations in the UK due to aggressive and leveraged buyouts. That's not necessarily reflective of capitalism as an abstract but geo-political reluctance in regulating its very worst excesses. I appreciate your position but I can't help but feel like it's like saying cars are crap because they breakdown too easily, when in practice; you're constantly red lining them. My point is that it doesn't have to be like this, but its a choice that we as society make, and we could choose to not make it.
  - Jensson 8mo ago
    > That's not necessarily reflective of capitalism as an abstract but geo-political reluctance in regulating its very worst excesses. That capitalism needs to be regulated or it results in these toxic outcomes is core to capitalism, yes, that is what we are saying. There is no benevolent capitalism without regulations.
    - Quarrelsome 8mo ago
      > yes, that is what we are saying its almost as if its what I've been saying the whole time, but adding the context of where the line is, where MySpace seemed healthy and TikTok is unhealthy. Lean startup culture is an equasion that produces sociopathy, I've always hated it and I think its relatively disgusting how it was embraced at the time. I guess I needed to rail against every type of capitalism at the start for you to appreciate my position earlier.
      - Jensson 8mo ago
        > I guess I needed to rail against every type of capitalism at the start for you to appreciate my position earlier. No, your position earlier was wrong according to what you are saying here, you said Facebook and Myspace didn't have these issues so its not capitalisms fault. But Facebook and Myspace existed under much less regulated circumstances than exists today, so your original statement would make it seem you want less regulations and think things will just sort out themselves. Or do you really think going back to 2005's regulations would fix things because internet was less toxic then? Internet wasn't less toxic then since capitalism was different, internet was less toxic then since it takes time for capitalism to optimize a system.
        Quarrelsome 8mo ago
        > But Facebook and Myspace existed under much less regulated circumstances than exists today sorry, what regulation are you talking about here? Afaik regulation in the US is pretty much the same back then as it is now. Worst case scenarios are usually slap on the wrists like when Snapchat lied to its users about ephemeral messaging and got fined a pathetic amount. > No, your position earlier was wrong according to what you are saying here or how about the idea that you've misunderstood my position and instead are shadow-boxing a monsterised impression of me that isn't real. I just don't like blaming capitalism in the abstract because it doesn't have to be like this. We can change it. Also on the off chance you lean considerably left, it might help to understand that I have experience of the USSR. So simply saying "capitalism bad" with an implication that we need to tear down the system isn't good enough for me. Been there done that, ancestors deported to Siberia. We could maybe try regulating first?
  - saubeidl 8mo ago
    Lenin described this exact process a century ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism,_the_Highest_Stage_of_Capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism,_the_Highest_Stage... The 'choice' is an illusion. To quote Lenin, the state becomes the 'executive committee of the financial oligarchy.' The refusal to regulate isn't a a choice or a policy failure; it's the inevitable outcome of the system.
    - Quarrelsome 8mo ago
      well my mother was born in the USSR, so I don't have to accept Lenin's position because my people suffered his "inevitable outcome of the system" for the choices he made. I'd rather fix up this existing system then day dream about a glorious socialist revolution that always seems to end in blood.
      - saubeidl 8mo ago
        What if this current system also always ends in blood, as history has shown so far?
        Quarrelsome 8mo ago
        I'd just like us to try regulation first?
    - nozzlegear 8mo ago
      Citing Lenin for a critique of capitalism's trajectory is a little bit like asking a prosecutor to write the defense's closing argument. He was a smart guy, but he wasn't some disinterested analyst writing a symposium on capitalism versus socialism; he was a revolutionary leader trying to build up support and justification for overthrowing the system. But even if we overlook his inherent bias, he was just plain wrong. He wrote that capitalism had reached its final stage through imperialism, and that, as you said, state capture via financial oligarchy was inevitable. That was over 100 years ago, and history has produced welfare states, labor protections, financial regulation, the SEC, Germany's codetermination laws, even the Nordic social democracies. None of those should be possible under Lenin's framework for capitalism. (Disclaimer: I'm all for common sense regulation of capitalism.)
Jensson 8mo ago
> Quakers built plenty of capitalistic entities that were primarily interested in profit but cared more for the long term with more of an eye on social and spiritual purpose. And those were replaced by profit seeking enterprises, that is capitalism. Sure some try to create such benevolent entities, but the profit seeking ones out-competes and replaces them over time, that is how capitalism works. So you can temporarily have a nice company here and there, but 50 years later likely it got replaced by a profit seeking one. The only way to get pro social behaviors from these is to make pro social acts the most profitable via regulations, but its still a profit seeking enterprise that doesn't try to be benevolent.
- Quarrelsome 8mo ago
  yeah that's because we allowed aggressive takeovers, especially leveraged ones. They got replaced by extractive capitalism due to a lack of regulation, not just because "capitalism". The extractive profit seeking entities don't "out-compete" they just use their capital in unregulated conditions to strip mine economies and poison capitalism to become sociopathy. Letting that happen is a choice, letting it continue is a choice.
  - Forgeties79 8mo ago
    Yet if you advocate for regulation you are immediately attacked by billionaires and massive companies and people who think those two groups benefit them more than the regulations protecting them. These groups bring unbelievable sums of money to bear to influence policy and public perception to make sure they are as under-regulated as possible. “Regulation” is a four letter word in the US. Look at the hostility we see on HN whenever it comes up with AI .
    - Quarrelsome 8mo ago
      Which is why our democratic systems need to provide solutions because they're places where we still have power. I'm from the UK and an increasing amount of our economy is locked up in exploitive equity extraction, much of it US based. Its really bad in some fields (e.g. care homes, foster homes), where the entities are straddled with such debt that the orgs "have no choice" but to charge sky high rates while paying peanuts. At some point I'm sure it will break and our politicians will "break the rules" in order to reign in private equity and sour their investments. It used to be the case that we permitted these excesses because they guaranteed our security, but now that recent US governments have shit the bed on that one; there's considerably less of a need to tolerate it.

saubeidl 8mo ago

I judge a system by what it does, not by what it's proponents say it could theoretically do. Extractive capitalism is real-world capitalism.

Quarrelsome 8mo ago
but it does that because of US hegemony empowering its equity to be extractive. We've lost a lot of organisations in the UK due to aggressive and leveraged buyouts. That's not necessarily reflective of capitalism as an abstract but geo-political reluctance in regulating its very worst excesses. I appreciate your position but I can't help but feel like it's like saying cars are crap because they breakdown too easily, when in practice; you're constantly red lining them. My point is that it doesn't have to be like this, but its a choice that we as society make, and we could choose to not make it.
- Jensson 8mo ago
  > That's not necessarily reflective of capitalism as an abstract but geo-political reluctance in regulating its very worst excesses. That capitalism needs to be regulated or it results in these toxic outcomes is core to capitalism, yes, that is what we are saying. There is no benevolent capitalism without regulations.
  - Quarrelsome 8mo ago
    > yes, that is what we are saying its almost as if its what I've been saying the whole time, but adding the context of where the line is, where MySpace seemed healthy and TikTok is unhealthy. Lean startup culture is an equasion that produces sociopathy, I've always hated it and I think its relatively disgusting how it was embraced at the time. I guess I needed to rail against every type of capitalism at the start for you to appreciate my position earlier.
    - Jensson 8mo ago
      > I guess I needed to rail against every type of capitalism at the start for you to appreciate my position earlier. No, your position earlier was wrong according to what you are saying here, you said Facebook and Myspace didn't have these issues so its not capitalisms fault. But Facebook and Myspace existed under much less regulated circumstances than exists today, so your original statement would make it seem you want less regulations and think things will just sort out themselves. Or do you really think going back to 2005's regulations would fix things because internet was less toxic then? Internet wasn't less toxic then since capitalism was different, internet was less toxic then since it takes time for capitalism to optimize a system.
      - Quarrelsome 8mo ago
        > But Facebook and Myspace existed under much less regulated circumstances than exists today sorry, what regulation are you talking about here? Afaik regulation in the US is pretty much the same back then as it is now. Worst case scenarios are usually slap on the wrists like when Snapchat lied to its users about ephemeral messaging and got fined a pathetic amount. > No, your position earlier was wrong according to what you are saying here or how about the idea that you've misunderstood my position and instead are shadow-boxing a monsterised impression of me that isn't real. I just don't like blaming capitalism in the abstract because it doesn't have to be like this. We can change it. Also on the off chance you lean considerably left, it might help to understand that I have experience of the USSR. So simply saying "capitalism bad" with an implication that we need to tear down the system isn't good enough for me. Been there done that, ancestors deported to Siberia. We could maybe try regulating first?
- saubeidl 8mo ago
  Lenin described this exact process a century ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism,_the_Highest_Stage_of_Capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism,_the_Highest_Stage... The 'choice' is an illusion. To quote Lenin, the state becomes the 'executive committee of the financial oligarchy.' The refusal to regulate isn't a a choice or a policy failure; it's the inevitable outcome of the system.
  - Quarrelsome 8mo ago
    well my mother was born in the USSR, so I don't have to accept Lenin's position because my people suffered his "inevitable outcome of the system" for the choices he made. I'd rather fix up this existing system then day dream about a glorious socialist revolution that always seems to end in blood.
    - saubeidl 8mo ago
      What if this current system also always ends in blood, as history has shown so far?
      - Quarrelsome 8mo ago
        I'd just like us to try regulation first?
  - nozzlegear 8mo ago
    Citing Lenin for a critique of capitalism's trajectory is a little bit like asking a prosecutor to write the defense's closing argument. He was a smart guy, but he wasn't some disinterested analyst writing a symposium on capitalism versus socialism; he was a revolutionary leader trying to build up support and justification for overthrowing the system. But even if we overlook his inherent bias, he was just plain wrong. He wrote that capitalism had reached its final stage through imperialism, and that, as you said, state capture via financial oligarchy was inevitable. That was over 100 years ago, and history has produced welfare states, labor protections, financial regulation, the SEC, Germany's codetermination laws, even the Nordic social democracies. None of those should be possible under Lenin's framework for capitalism. (Disclaimer: I'm all for common sense regulation of capitalism.)

Jensson 8mo ago

> Quakers built plenty of capitalistic entities that were primarily interested in profit but cared more for the long term with more of an eye on social and spiritual purpose. And those were replaced by profit seeking enterprises, that is capitalism. Sure some try to create such benevolent entities, but the profit seeking ones out-competes and replaces them over time, that is how capitalism works. So you can temporarily have a nice company here and there, but 50 years later likely it got replaced by a profit seeking one. The only way to get pro social behaviors from these is to make pro social acts the most profitable via regulations, but its still a profit seeking enterprise that doesn't try to be benevolent.

Quarrelsome 8mo ago
yeah that's because we allowed aggressive takeovers, especially leveraged ones. They got replaced by extractive capitalism due to a lack of regulation, not just because "capitalism". The extractive profit seeking entities don't "out-compete" they just use their capital in unregulated conditions to strip mine economies and poison capitalism to become sociopathy. Letting that happen is a choice, letting it continue is a choice.
- Forgeties79 8mo ago
  Yet if you advocate for regulation you are immediately attacked by billionaires and massive companies and people who think those two groups benefit them more than the regulations protecting them. These groups bring unbelievable sums of money to bear to influence policy and public perception to make sure they are as under-regulated as possible. “Regulation” is a four letter word in the US. Look at the hostility we see on HN whenever it comes up with AI .
  - Quarrelsome 8mo ago
    Which is why our democratic systems need to provide solutions because they're places where we still have power. I'm from the UK and an increasing amount of our economy is locked up in exploitive equity extraction, much of it US based. Its really bad in some fields (e.g. care homes, foster homes), where the entities are straddled with such debt that the orgs "have no choice" but to charge sky high rates while paying peanuts. At some point I'm sure it will break and our politicians will "break the rules" in order to reign in private equity and sour their investments. It used to be the case that we permitted these excesses because they guaranteed our security, but now that recent US governments have shit the bed on that one; there's considerably less of a need to tolerate it.