4 ms·

Plus... a lot of these companies are side-stepping CE / FCC certifications by clinging to the "we only sell to 'developers'." When you want to sell to non-DIY c

by beambot 14y ago

Plus... a lot of these companies are side-stepping CE / FCC certifications by clinging to the "we only sell to 'developers'." When you want to sell to non-DIY consumers, I'm not so sure this is an option anymore -- especially for projects like home automation where there are serious safety concerns (fire and electrocution!). I've never gone through that process. Anyone know ballpark costs for certifications?

mixmax 14y ago
The way we got a CE certification for our product was by hacking the system. It turns out that the way it works is that some legal entity of your own choice puts a CE-approved sticker on the product and can then be held responsible if the product doesn't meet the regulations laid forth in the directive that deals with whatever your product was (In our case the machine directive). Of course the way it's meant to work is that your company hires an approval company that knows a lot about certifications, tests the product and then approves it knowing that they're on the hook if it doesn't meet requirements and regulations. Nowhere does it say that the approving company can't be the same company as the one making the product, so basically we bought a few CE stickers put them on the product and it was approved. By us.
- callmevlad 14y ago
  The Wikipedia entry on CE certification says: * The product may be placed on the market only if it complies with the provisions of all applicable directives and if the conformity assessment procedure has been carried out accordingly. * If stipulated in the directive(s), an authorized third party (Notified Body) must be involved in the conformity assessment procedure. I'm not sure if the machine directive stipulates it, but "authorized third party" seems to imply that the manufacturer can't perform the certification themselves. Even if you can count yourself as the approving company, did you make sure that your product complies with all the provisions? Or were you taking advantage of some loophole somewhere to skip the entire process? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking EDIT: I see that you mentioned this was 15 years ago, so I'm mostly curious for historical reasons.
  - tkhoven 14y ago
    If stipulated in the directive(s), an authorized third party (Notified Body) must be involved in the conformity assessment procedure. The "If stipulated" part seems to be the key. Below your quotes in the wikipedia entry there is a section that covers self-certification. While it doesn't list the directives comprehensively, the steps there do seem to indicate that self-certification is not unanticipated.
- kirubakaran 14y ago
  Someone downvoted you probably because they disagree with this practice. All I can say is, thank you for sharing. +1
- simonbarker87 14y ago
  It's not really "Hacking the system" - it is more than acceptable for a company to self certify so long as you are happy with the documentation you collect from the component manufactures - it's just that you assume all the risk if you are fund to be in breach of the unifying directives (the legals that sit behind the legislation). One of the reasons the test houses exist is that not everyone wants to assume the responsibility of self certification and so they outsource it to experts in the test industry. The most important thing to make sure, regardless of the route you choose, is to always have your certifications and technical documents to hand should one of the monitoring bodies ask for it
ErrantX 14y ago
Well. In terms of technical difficulty CEcertification is not ridiculous. However it does require not-insignificant amounts of time (writing the documentation) and money (certification).
kbaker 14y ago
Our recent projects through the FCC were about $5-6k for a single product, and around 1-2 week turnaround time. Granted, we have intentional radiators (like wifi radios, cellular modems) in our products so it may be more expensive. YMMV of course. Edit: with the comment by thomaslangston, I should clarify that the included radios already had their own FCC certifications; this was just Part 15 for the whole device.
thomaslangston 14y ago
I have read somewhere, that using pre-certified parts (wifi, boards, etc.) can dramatically streamline that process. But I have not done this personally so treat this advice as urban myth until you find further verification.
follower 14y ago
On the "we only sell to 'developers'" angle, there was an interesting talk that addressed this--apparent myth--at the recent Open Hardware Summit. "Agency Compliance and You: An Introduction for Small Manufacturers of OSHW" -- <http://summit.oshwa.org/agency-compliance-and-you-an-introduction-for-small-manufacturers-of-oshw/&#62 http://summit.oshwa.org/agency-compliance-and-you-an-introdu...; Slides: <http://summit.oshwa.org/schedule/oshws_presentation_fcc/&#62 http://summit.oshwa.org/schedule/oshws_presentation_fcc/> They don't seem to have the edited video online yet but you can look at the schedule <http://summit.oshwa.org/schedule/&#62 http://summit.oshwa.org/schedule/> to find the session in the recorded live stream: <http://www.ustream.tv/channel/ohs2012&#62 http://www.ustream.tv/channel/ohs2012>
- follower 14y ago
  Turns out the presenter also has a SparkFun tutorial on the topic: "The FCC and Open Source Hardware " <http://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/398&#62 http://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/398>

by beambot 14y ago

mixmax 14y ago

The way we got a CE certification for our product was by hacking the system. It turns out that the way it works is that some legal entity of your own choice puts a CE-approved sticker on the product and can then be held responsible if the product doesn't meet the regulations laid forth in the directive that deals with whatever your product was (In our case the machine directive). Of course the way it's meant to work is that your company hires an approval company that knows a lot about certifications, tests the product and then approves it knowing that they're on the hook if it doesn't meet requirements and regulations. Nowhere does it say that the approving company can't be the same company as the one making the product, so basically we bought a few CE stickers put them on the product and it was approved. By us.

callmevlad 14y ago
The Wikipedia entry on CE certification says: * The product may be placed on the market only if it complies with the provisions of all applicable directives and if the conformity assessment procedure has been carried out accordingly. * If stipulated in the directive(s), an authorized third party (Notified Body) must be involved in the conformity assessment procedure. I'm not sure if the machine directive stipulates it, but "authorized third party" seems to imply that the manufacturer can't perform the certification themselves. Even if you can count yourself as the approving company, did you make sure that your product complies with all the provisions? Or were you taking advantage of some loophole somewhere to skip the entire process? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking EDIT: I see that you mentioned this was 15 years ago, so I'm mostly curious for historical reasons.
- tkhoven 14y ago
  If stipulated in the directive(s), an authorized third party (Notified Body) must be involved in the conformity assessment procedure. The "If stipulated" part seems to be the key. Below your quotes in the wikipedia entry there is a section that covers self-certification. While it doesn't list the directives comprehensively, the steps there do seem to indicate that self-certification is not unanticipated.
kirubakaran 14y ago
Someone downvoted you probably because they disagree with this practice. All I can say is, thank you for sharing. +1
simonbarker87 14y ago
It's not really "Hacking the system" - it is more than acceptable for a company to self certify so long as you are happy with the documentation you collect from the component manufactures - it's just that you assume all the risk if you are fund to be in breach of the unifying directives (the legals that sit behind the legislation). One of the reasons the test houses exist is that not everyone wants to assume the responsibility of self certification and so they outsource it to experts in the test industry. The most important thing to make sure, regardless of the route you choose, is to always have your certifications and technical documents to hand should one of the monitoring bodies ask for it

ErrantX 14y ago

Well. In terms of technical difficulty CEcertification is not ridiculous. However it does require not-insignificant amounts of time (writing the documentation) and money (certification).

kbaker 14y ago

Our recent projects through the FCC were about $5-6k for a single product, and around 1-2 week turnaround time. Granted, we have intentional radiators (like wifi radios, cellular modems) in our products so it may be more expensive. YMMV of course. Edit: with the comment by thomaslangston, I should clarify that the included radios already had their own FCC certifications; this was just Part 15 for the whole device.

thomaslangston 14y ago

I have read somewhere, that using pre-certified parts (wifi, boards, etc.) can dramatically streamline that process. But I have not done this personally so treat this advice as urban myth until you find further verification.

follower 14y ago

On the "we only sell to 'developers'" angle, there was an interesting talk that addressed this--apparent myth--at the recent Open Hardware Summit. "Agency Compliance and You: An Introduction for Small Manufacturers of OSHW" -- <http://summit.oshwa.org/agency-compliance-and-you-an-introduction-for-small-manufacturers-of-oshw/&#62 http://summit.oshwa.org/agency-compliance-and-you-an-introdu...; Slides: <http://summit.oshwa.org/schedule/oshws_presentation_fcc/&#62 http://summit.oshwa.org/schedule/oshws_presentation_fcc/> They don't seem to have the edited video online yet but you can look at the schedule <http://summit.oshwa.org/schedule/&#62 http://summit.oshwa.org/schedule/> to find the session in the recorded live stream: <http://www.ustream.tv/channel/ohs2012&#62 http://www.ustream.tv/channel/ohs2012>

follower 14y ago
Turns out the presenter also has a SparkFun tutorial on the topic: "The FCC and Open Source Hardware " <http://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/398&#62 http://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/398>