5 ms·

Dont use Excel for accounting....

by belter 8mo ago

sdf2erf 8mo ago
[flagged]
- Pooge 8mo ago
  Do they use it as a source of truth or do they import that data in a spreadsheet to let the user make their own calculations? Not the person you responded to but I'm genuinely curious.
- _se 8mo ago
  This entire site is full of idiots confidently spouting nonsense. Probably time to move on. "Don't use Excel for accounting" has to be the dumbest thing I've read in a year, even with all of the LLM bullshit going on. And that's including the people this morning who are apparently excited for LLMs to file their taxes.
  - kami23 8mo ago
    I've been having the same feelings lately, especially around the AI doomers coming in with some weird observations that make no sense. I usually don't comment, but seeing a lot of these types of overgeneralized responses. 'oh you do x? You don't do y? You're an idiot' That's not productive.
  - belter 8mo ago
    I have the impression today you will be one of the 10,000: https://xkcd.com/1053/ https://xkcd.com/1053/ But you are correct, this entire site is full of idiots confidently spouting nonsense... :-) "Floating-point arithmetic may give inaccurate results in Excel" - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/microsoft-365-apps/excel/floating-point-arithmetic-inaccurate-result https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/microsoft-365... "Classification of Spreadsheet Errors" - https://arxiv.org/pdf/0805.4224 https://arxiv.org/pdf/0805.4224 "A study conducted by Coopers & Lybrand found errors in 90% of the spreadsheets audited." "Impact of Errors in Operational Spreadsheets" - https://arxiv.org/abs/0801.0715 https://arxiv.org/abs/0801.0715 "What We Don’t Know About Spreadsheet Errors Today" - https://arxiv.org/pdf/1602.02601 https://arxiv.org/pdf/1602.02601
    - _se 8mo ago
      You don't really deserve a response, but even the idea that you could tell someone to not use Excel for accounting and seriously project that you know anything about how accounting works in the real world is hilarious. You could think 500 random internet articles - it doesn't matter. The assertion is still ridiculous. You literally will not be able to get a job as an accountant without being able to use Excel. Don't be an idiot. You can also link to hundreds of articles showing that dynamic types cause errors. People don't care, they still use them when it makes sense to use them. There is no better mainstream alternative for accounting than Excel right now, period.
      - belter 8mo ago
        Not a single reply on the technical and governance arguments? I think we agree...this site is indeed full of idiots confidently spouting nonsense. :-)
        shimman 8mo ago
        It's shocking and honestly pathetic. "Hey guys the software you use is not accurate" being met with such derision is how we regress as a society, not move forward.
        bdangubic 8mo ago
        nothing is accurate in the hands of incompetent people
        _se 8mo ago
        No, not a single reply, because your statement wasn't "Excel can cause problems sometimes". That's a different conversation. You said "Don't use Excel for accounting", which is something you could only say if you have no idea at all about how accounting works in the real world. I'm not arguing about whether or not Excel is perfect, or if it causes problems, or if it makes demons fly out of your nose. I am educating you about the real world and how it's important to understand that no matter how "well akshually" technically correct you are, it doesn't matter at all if the advice you're giving is WRONG and not useful to people. So, I repeat. Idiots confidently spouting nonsense.
  - sdf2erf 8mo ago
    "This entire site is full of idiots confidently spouting nonsense." Too right - this goes for the arrogant geeks at the within the orgs of LLM producers who still havent displaced call center workers with their technology. Comical stuff. Really is. The lack of disconnect with what people actually do in jobs is absolutely breathtaking.
    - rvz 8mo ago
      > Too right - this goes for the arrogant geeks at the within the orgs of LLM producers who still havent displaced call center workers with their technology. Some have shares in these AI companies and need to off-load them either on secondaries or IPO. These are the clear incentives to show performative results to give the impression that you can replace accountants with AI without any of the risks involved.
      - sdf2erf 8mo ago
        Unfortunately if those jokers intend to IPO later this year it wont go down too well. They should've done it 6 months ago.
- torginus 8mo ago
  Afaik Excel is wicked fast at math (can handle ginormous spreadsheets, some real magic under the hood), while correctly doing decimal based math (1/5 is 0.2 exactly, not some floating point monstrosity)
- belter 8mo ago
  A yes PWC :-) That is what I would expect :-)) I just hope the divine powers of Luca Pacioli might help you, before is too late. A whole set of accounting bodies and real world disasters expressly advise against its use and spreadsheets in general. You even have dedicated pages... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spreadsheet_mistakes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spreadsheet_mistakes EuSPRIG Horror Stories - Spreadsheet mistakes https://eusprig.org/research-info/horror-stories/ https://eusprig.org/research-info/horror-stories/ For example the (ICAEW) UK chartered accountants explicitly warn auditors. And research has shown that around 94% in these contexts contain errors: "Errors in Operational Spreadsheets" - https://faculty.tuck.dartmouth.edu/images/uploads/faculty/serp/Errors.pdf https://faculty.tuck.dartmouth.edu/images/uploads/faculty/se... Also... Excel does not use exact decimal arithmetic. It stores numbers in IEEE-754 binary floating point, which cannot precisely represent many decimal values used in accounting. Microsoft documents this explicitly: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/troubleshoot/excel/floating-point-arithmetic-inaccurate-result https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/troubleshoot/excel/... It also only preserves 15 significant digits and silently zeroes anything beyond that: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/excel-specifications-and-limits-1672b34d-7043-467e-8e27-269d656771c3 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/excel-specificati... So this means: – decimal values are approximated – rounding errors accumulate – large financial values lose precision – results depend on formula structure and rounding order That alone disqualifies it as Accounting ledger. Historically you have lots of famous examples of bad outcomes of treating Excel as financial infrastructure... The JPMorgan London Whale - $6B loss A flawed Excel risk model and copy paste errors understated risk and helped produce multi-billion losses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_JPMorgan_Chase_trading_loss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_JPMorgan_Chase_trading_lo... TransAlta energy trading — $24M loss Simple spreadsheet row misalignment in bidding model cost aprox 10% of the company profit. https://www.lumeer.io/spreadsheet-for-project-management/ https://www.lumeer.io/spreadsheet-for-project-management/ Fannie Mae - $1.3B reporting error wrong spreadsheet formula caused more than $1B accounting misstatement. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/oct/28/microsoft-excels-bloopers-reel-40-years-of-spreadsheet-errors https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/oct/28/microsoft... https://archive.is/w1cjj https://archive.is/w1cjj Fidelity Magellan — $2.6B error Missing minus sign in a spreadsheet overstated capital gains by billions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spreadsheet_mistakes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spreadsheet_mistakes Large audit firms also publish entire risk frameworks, ( and I am sure PWC does also...) explaining why uncontrolled spreadsheets are a major source of financial misstatement in the first place.
tomjakubowski 8mo ago
An Excel spreadsheet is a bad source of truth for data. It's fine for analytics though.
bdangubic 8mo ago
[flagged]
belter 8mo ago
HN ignorance on display... The Journal of Accountancy - "Bugged by Excel’s calculation errors" - https://www.journalofaccountancy.com/issues/2014/mar/excel-calculation-errors/ https://www.journalofaccountancy.com/issues/2014/mar/excel-c... ICAEW (Institute of Chartered Accountants) — "Rounding Errors Revisited" (Excel Tips #447) - https://www.icaew.com/technical/technology/excel-community/excel-community-articles/2022/excel-tips-and-tricks-447 https://www.icaew.com/technical/technology/excel-community/e... Just a reminder that an accountant who might say "I use Currency format" is still working in binary floating point as the format is just used as a display mask. And using VBA macros with the Currency type will hit problems at the boundary, when values move between the worksheet and the macro. The tool is broken in a way that proper accounting software is not... "Floating-point arithmetic may give inaccurate results in Excel" - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/microsoft-365-apps/excel/floating-point-arithmetic-inaccurate-result https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/microsoft-365...
Bluescreenbuddy 8mo ago
[flagged]

Dont use Excel for accounting....

by belter 8mo ago

Dont use Excel for accounting....

sdf2erf 8mo ago

[flagged]

Pooge 8mo ago
Do they use it as a source of truth or do they import that data in a spreadsheet to let the user make their own calculations? Not the person you responded to but I'm genuinely curious.
_se 8mo ago
This entire site is full of idiots confidently spouting nonsense. Probably time to move on. "Don't use Excel for accounting" has to be the dumbest thing I've read in a year, even with all of the LLM bullshit going on. And that's including the people this morning who are apparently excited for LLMs to file their taxes.
- kami23 8mo ago
  I've been having the same feelings lately, especially around the AI doomers coming in with some weird observations that make no sense. I usually don't comment, but seeing a lot of these types of overgeneralized responses. 'oh you do x? You don't do y? You're an idiot' That's not productive.
- belter 8mo ago
  I have the impression today you will be one of the 10,000: https://xkcd.com/1053/ https://xkcd.com/1053/ But you are correct, this entire site is full of idiots confidently spouting nonsense... :-) "Floating-point arithmetic may give inaccurate results in Excel" - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/microsoft-365-apps/excel/floating-point-arithmetic-inaccurate-result https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/microsoft-365... "Classification of Spreadsheet Errors" - https://arxiv.org/pdf/0805.4224 https://arxiv.org/pdf/0805.4224 "A study conducted by Coopers & Lybrand found errors in 90% of the spreadsheets audited." "Impact of Errors in Operational Spreadsheets" - https://arxiv.org/abs/0801.0715 https://arxiv.org/abs/0801.0715 "What We Don’t Know About Spreadsheet Errors Today" - https://arxiv.org/pdf/1602.02601 https://arxiv.org/pdf/1602.02601
  - _se 8mo ago
    You don't really deserve a response, but even the idea that you could tell someone to not use Excel for accounting and seriously project that you know anything about how accounting works in the real world is hilarious. You could think 500 random internet articles - it doesn't matter. The assertion is still ridiculous. You literally will not be able to get a job as an accountant without being able to use Excel. Don't be an idiot. You can also link to hundreds of articles showing that dynamic types cause errors. People don't care, they still use them when it makes sense to use them. There is no better mainstream alternative for accounting than Excel right now, period.
    - belter 8mo ago
      Not a single reply on the technical and governance arguments? I think we agree...this site is indeed full of idiots confidently spouting nonsense. :-)
      - shimman 8mo ago
        It's shocking and honestly pathetic. "Hey guys the software you use is not accurate" being met with such derision is how we regress as a society, not move forward.
        bdangubic 8mo ago
        nothing is accurate in the hands of incompetent people
      - _se 8mo ago
        No, not a single reply, because your statement wasn't "Excel can cause problems sometimes". That's a different conversation. You said "Don't use Excel for accounting", which is something you could only say if you have no idea at all about how accounting works in the real world. I'm not arguing about whether or not Excel is perfect, or if it causes problems, or if it makes demons fly out of your nose. I am educating you about the real world and how it's important to understand that no matter how "well akshually" technically correct you are, it doesn't matter at all if the advice you're giving is WRONG and not useful to people. So, I repeat. Idiots confidently spouting nonsense.
- sdf2erf 8mo ago
  "This entire site is full of idiots confidently spouting nonsense." Too right - this goes for the arrogant geeks at the within the orgs of LLM producers who still havent displaced call center workers with their technology. Comical stuff. Really is. The lack of disconnect with what people actually do in jobs is absolutely breathtaking.
  - rvz 8mo ago
    > Too right - this goes for the arrogant geeks at the within the orgs of LLM producers who still havent displaced call center workers with their technology. Some have shares in these AI companies and need to off-load them either on secondaries or IPO. These are the clear incentives to show performative results to give the impression that you can replace accountants with AI without any of the risks involved.
    - sdf2erf 8mo ago
      Unfortunately if those jokers intend to IPO later this year it wont go down too well. They should've done it 6 months ago.
torginus 8mo ago
Afaik Excel is wicked fast at math (can handle ginormous spreadsheets, some real magic under the hood), while correctly doing decimal based math (1/5 is 0.2 exactly, not some floating point monstrosity)
belter 8mo ago
A yes PWC :-) That is what I would expect :-)) I just hope the divine powers of Luca Pacioli might help you, before is too late. A whole set of accounting bodies and real world disasters expressly advise against its use and spreadsheets in general. You even have dedicated pages... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spreadsheet_mistakes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spreadsheet_mistakes EuSPRIG Horror Stories - Spreadsheet mistakes https://eusprig.org/research-info/horror-stories/ https://eusprig.org/research-info/horror-stories/ For example the (ICAEW) UK chartered accountants explicitly warn auditors. And research has shown that around 94% in these contexts contain errors: "Errors in Operational Spreadsheets" - https://faculty.tuck.dartmouth.edu/images/uploads/faculty/serp/Errors.pdf https://faculty.tuck.dartmouth.edu/images/uploads/faculty/se... Also... Excel does not use exact decimal arithmetic. It stores numbers in IEEE-754 binary floating point, which cannot precisely represent many decimal values used in accounting. Microsoft documents this explicitly: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/troubleshoot/excel/floating-point-arithmetic-inaccurate-result https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/troubleshoot/excel/... It also only preserves 15 significant digits and silently zeroes anything beyond that: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/excel-specifications-and-limits-1672b34d-7043-467e-8e27-269d656771c3 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/excel-specificati... So this means: – decimal values are approximated – rounding errors accumulate – large financial values lose precision – results depend on formula structure and rounding order That alone disqualifies it as Accounting ledger. Historically you have lots of famous examples of bad outcomes of treating Excel as financial infrastructure... The JPMorgan London Whale - $6B loss A flawed Excel risk model and copy paste errors understated risk and helped produce multi-billion losses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_JPMorgan_Chase_trading_loss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_JPMorgan_Chase_trading_lo... TransAlta energy trading — $24M loss Simple spreadsheet row misalignment in bidding model cost aprox 10% of the company profit. https://www.lumeer.io/spreadsheet-for-project-management/ https://www.lumeer.io/spreadsheet-for-project-management/ Fannie Mae - $1.3B reporting error wrong spreadsheet formula caused more than $1B accounting misstatement. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/oct/28/microsoft-excels-bloopers-reel-40-years-of-spreadsheet-errors https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/oct/28/microsoft... https://archive.is/w1cjj https://archive.is/w1cjj Fidelity Magellan — $2.6B error Missing minus sign in a spreadsheet overstated capital gains by billions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spreadsheet_mistakes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spreadsheet_mistakes Large audit firms also publish entire risk frameworks, ( and I am sure PWC does also...) explaining why uncontrolled spreadsheets are a major source of financial misstatement in the first place.

tomjakubowski 8mo ago

An Excel spreadsheet is a bad source of truth for data. It's fine for analytics though.

bdangubic 8mo ago

[flagged]

belter 8mo ago

HN ignorance on display... The Journal of Accountancy - "Bugged by Excel’s calculation errors" - https://www.journalofaccountancy.com/issues/2014/mar/excel-calculation-errors/ https://www.journalofaccountancy.com/issues/2014/mar/excel-c... ICAEW (Institute of Chartered Accountants) — "Rounding Errors Revisited" (Excel Tips #447) - https://www.icaew.com/technical/technology/excel-community/excel-community-articles/2022/excel-tips-and-tricks-447 https://www.icaew.com/technical/technology/excel-community/e... Just a reminder that an accountant who might say "I use Currency format" is still working in binary floating point as the format is just used as a display mask. And using VBA macros with the Currency type will hit problems at the boundary, when values move between the worksheet and the macro. The tool is broken in a way that proper accounting software is not... "Floating-point arithmetic may give inaccurate results in Excel" - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/microsoft-365-apps/excel/floating-point-arithmetic-inaccurate-result https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/microsoft-365...

Bluescreenbuddy 8mo ago

[flagged]