3 ms·

> Illegal immigrants are not voting, especially in significant numbers. How can you know this though?

AnimalMuppet 9mo ago
Well, I'd say the claim is "illegal immigrants are voting in significant numbers, and that's a problem we need to fix". That's the claim that proposes to change the status quo, so that's the claim that needs to supply the evidence.
mindslight 9mo ago
What do you mean? State governments administer voter rolls. One of the general requirements for registering to vote is proving you are a citizen [0]. What is your exact claim here? Going above and beyond to steelman this, I can think of two possibilities: Is it that illegal immigrants are showing up to polling places and standing in the shoes of actual citizens? And they've managed to be organized enough while doing this that there aren't a bunch of citizens that show up right before polls close being told they've already voted? [1] Or is it that states are not verifying citizenship, contrary to their plainly-stated procedures and straightforward identity databases? If so, where is the evidence of this? Not occasional instances of fraud, but indications of large-scale illegality on the part of any state? Or is there a specific claim of something else I have missed? As I'm always seeing this sweeping general indictment but never any elaboration on what the specific claim it is, it seems like another bit of simplistic FUD that preys on intellectual laziness to undermine trust in our public institutions. And vague half-formed claims like "How can you know this though?" seem right in line with this. [0] the only exceptions I can find are a few rare municipalities for local elections only (not even state elections!) [1] and if this was a problem, why would the focus be specifically on illegal immigrants rather than including citizens doing the same thing to vote more than once?
- eudamoniac 9mo ago
  I've always assumed it to be #2 combined with indiscriminate mail-in ballots if it were happening. Anecdotally, my non-citizen roommate received a ballot in Seattle. I'm genuinely asking: how do we know this? What is the mechanism by which this is known well enough to be strongly claimed with regularity? For #1, if that were happening, would it be documented somewhere that N people tried to vote and had already voted? If #2, would it be documented somewhere that an audit of verification procedures happened? Where would these be documented?
  - mindslight 9mo ago
    The reasonable assumption is that mail in ballots are checked after they are mailed in, as they're being tallied. This avoids people voting in person plus mailing in, duplicating ballots, rolls changing before the election, etc. The only concern I see is that unilaterally mailing out ballots can induce fraud from new residents at the address filling out the ballots for the old residents - drastically lowering the bar from pretending to be someone else at a polling place, or even having to actively request ballots for someone else. > would it be documented somewhere that an audit of verification procedures happened? Where would these be documented? That you're asking this as open pondering rather than just straightforwardly researching your own state still feels quite leading. For the states I am familiar with, administering the voting rolls is the responsibility of the Secretary of State. They do generally perform audits, but you have to dig into the specifics of your own state if you want the exact answers of what has been audited - not just handwave vague feelings of how you personally not knowing must imply the worst possibility. This is what I mean about undermining trust in our public institutions. Specifically for your own example of your non-citizen roommate receiving a ballot, it seems that you should look up what your Secretary of State has to say about the matter. I'm guessing they've got a well-written FAQ page that lays out how such a ballot would be rejected.
    - eudamoniac 9mo ago
      I don't really think voter fraud is a problem. I'm taking issue with the strong assertions without substantiation that it is definitely not happening. Maybe I could research all that, but you haven't, yet your comment earlier was very assertive that it is not happening. This tends to be always what happens in these discussions. I've seen posts like yours probably hundreds of times and never had the sources you are telling me to find included in the posts. That this is such a hot political topic would lead me to believe that these sources would have been compiled somewhere for easy verification. If they aren't, that is strange; if they are, why is it never posted?
      - mindslight 9mo ago
        I think your lack of understanding stems from seeing this primarily as a "hot political topic." Secretaries of State work to get this basic civic information out there, but they clearly do not have the reach of well moneyed political media that manufactures "just asking questions" topics out of whole cloth. For example, here are two links from the WA SOS that I found with 20 seconds of searching: https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/voters/helpful-information/frequently-asked-questions-about-elections https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/voters/helpful-information/... https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/voters/helpful-information/frequently-asked-questions-voting-mail https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/voters/helpful-information/... If you've got questions about the integrity of your state's voting, then it's your own civic duty to seek out and understand these basic facts rather than spouting off FUD while demanding others to do the intellectual work for you, spoon feed you the results, and hope that you accept them. The failure of critics to do this basic work is exactly where these "strong assertions without substantiation" come from - the onus is on those making the argument that illegal immigrants are voting to do the basic work of understanding the states' existing systems and describe how exactly they believe this is happening.

Well, I'd say the claim is "illegal immigrants are voting in significant numbers, and that's a problem we need to fix". That's the claim that proposes to change the status quo, so that's the claim that needs to supply the evidence.

mindslight 9mo ago

What do you mean? State governments administer voter rolls. One of the general requirements for registering to vote is proving you are a citizen [0]. What is your exact claim here? Going above and beyond to steelman this, I can think of two possibilities: Is it that illegal immigrants are showing up to polling places and standing in the shoes of actual citizens? And they've managed to be organized enough while doing this that there aren't a bunch of citizens that show up right before polls close being told they've already voted? [1] Or is it that states are not verifying citizenship, contrary to their plainly-stated procedures and straightforward identity databases? If so, where is the evidence of this? Not occasional instances of fraud, but indications of large-scale illegality on the part of any state? Or is there a specific claim of something else I have missed? As I'm always seeing this sweeping general indictment but never any elaboration on what the specific claim it is, it seems like another bit of simplistic FUD that preys on intellectual laziness to undermine trust in our public institutions. And vague half-formed claims like "How can you know this though?" seem right in line with this. [0] the only exceptions I can find are a few rare municipalities for local elections only (not even state elections!) [1] and if this was a problem, why would the focus be specifically on illegal immigrants rather than including citizens doing the same thing to vote more than once?

eudamoniac 9mo ago
I've always assumed it to be #2 combined with indiscriminate mail-in ballots if it were happening. Anecdotally, my non-citizen roommate received a ballot in Seattle. I'm genuinely asking: how do we know this? What is the mechanism by which this is known well enough to be strongly claimed with regularity? For #1, if that were happening, would it be documented somewhere that N people tried to vote and had already voted? If #2, would it be documented somewhere that an audit of verification procedures happened? Where would these be documented?
- mindslight 9mo ago
  The reasonable assumption is that mail in ballots are checked after they are mailed in, as they're being tallied. This avoids people voting in person plus mailing in, duplicating ballots, rolls changing before the election, etc. The only concern I see is that unilaterally mailing out ballots can induce fraud from new residents at the address filling out the ballots for the old residents - drastically lowering the bar from pretending to be someone else at a polling place, or even having to actively request ballots for someone else. > would it be documented somewhere that an audit of verification procedures happened? Where would these be documented? That you're asking this as open pondering rather than just straightforwardly researching your own state still feels quite leading. For the states I am familiar with, administering the voting rolls is the responsibility of the Secretary of State. They do generally perform audits, but you have to dig into the specifics of your own state if you want the exact answers of what has been audited - not just handwave vague feelings of how you personally not knowing must imply the worst possibility. This is what I mean about undermining trust in our public institutions. Specifically for your own example of your non-citizen roommate receiving a ballot, it seems that you should look up what your Secretary of State has to say about the matter. I'm guessing they've got a well-written FAQ page that lays out how such a ballot would be rejected.
  - eudamoniac 9mo ago
    I don't really think voter fraud is a problem. I'm taking issue with the strong assertions without substantiation that it is definitely not happening. Maybe I could research all that, but you haven't, yet your comment earlier was very assertive that it is not happening. This tends to be always what happens in these discussions. I've seen posts like yours probably hundreds of times and never had the sources you are telling me to find included in the posts. That this is such a hot political topic would lead me to believe that these sources would have been compiled somewhere for easy verification. If they aren't, that is strange; if they are, why is it never posted?
    - mindslight 9mo ago
      I think your lack of understanding stems from seeing this primarily as a "hot political topic." Secretaries of State work to get this basic civic information out there, but they clearly do not have the reach of well moneyed political media that manufactures "just asking questions" topics out of whole cloth. For example, here are two links from the WA SOS that I found with 20 seconds of searching: https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/voters/helpful-information/frequently-asked-questions-about-elections https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/voters/helpful-information/... https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/voters/helpful-information/frequently-asked-questions-voting-mail https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/voters/helpful-information/... If you've got questions about the integrity of your state's voting, then it's your own civic duty to seek out and understand these basic facts rather than spouting off FUD while demanding others to do the intellectual work for you, spoon feed you the results, and hope that you accept them. The failure of critics to do this basic work is exactly where these "strong assertions without substantiation" come from - the onus is on those making the argument that illegal immigrants are voting to do the basic work of understanding the states' existing systems and describe how exactly they believe this is happening.