6 ms·

Lately my company has been doing a lot of complex accounting and reporting in spreadsheets. Overall was surprised by how well both GPT and Claude handled some

by typpo 8mo ago

Lately my company has been doing a lot of complex accounting and reporting in spreadsheets. Overall was surprised by how well both GPT and Claude handled some of these extremely tedious tasks. Not uncommon to have an hours-long task compressed to minutes. My anecdotal experience is GPT 5.2 Pro is decently ahead of Claude Opus 4.5 in this category when it gets to the tricky stuff, both in presentation and accuracy. The long reasoning seems to help a lot. But, apparently the benchmarks do not agree. Edit - noticed OpenAI specifically focuses on finance use cases in their gpt-5.3-codex blog as well https://openai.com/index/introducing-gpt-5-3-codex/ https://openai.com/index/introducing-gpt-5-3-codex/

sdf2erf 8mo ago
[flagged]
belter 8mo ago
Dont use Excel for accounting....
- sdf2erf 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - Pooge 8mo ago
    Do they use it as a source of truth or do they import that data in a spreadsheet to let the user make their own calculations? Not the person you responded to but I'm genuinely curious.
  - _se 8mo ago
    This entire site is full of idiots confidently spouting nonsense. Probably time to move on. "Don't use Excel for accounting" has to be the dumbest thing I've read in a year, even with all of the LLM bullshit going on. And that's including the people this morning who are apparently excited for LLMs to file their taxes.
    - kami23 8mo ago
      I've been having the same feelings lately, especially around the AI doomers coming in with some weird observations that make no sense. I usually don't comment, but seeing a lot of these types of overgeneralized responses. 'oh you do x? You don't do y? You're an idiot' That's not productive.
    - belter 8mo ago
      I have the impression today you will be one of the 10,000: https://xkcd.com/1053/ https://xkcd.com/1053/ But you are correct, this entire site is full of idiots confidently spouting nonsense... :-) "Floating-point arithmetic may give inaccurate results in Excel" - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/microsoft-365-apps/excel/floating-point-arithmetic-inaccurate-result https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/microsoft-365... "Classification of Spreadsheet Errors" - https://arxiv.org/pdf/0805.4224 https://arxiv.org/pdf/0805.4224 "A study conducted by Coopers & Lybrand found errors in 90% of the spreadsheets audited." "Impact of Errors in Operational Spreadsheets" - https://arxiv.org/abs/0801.0715 https://arxiv.org/abs/0801.0715 "What We Don’t Know About Spreadsheet Errors Today" - https://arxiv.org/pdf/1602.02601 https://arxiv.org/pdf/1602.02601
      - _se 8mo ago
        You don't really deserve a response, but even the idea that you could tell someone to not use Excel for accounting and seriously project that you know anything about how accounting works in the real world is hilarious. You could think 500 random internet articles - it doesn't matter. The assertion is still ridiculous. You literally will not be able to get a job as an accountant without being able to use Excel. Don't be an idiot. You can also link to hundreds of articles showing that dynamic types cause errors. People don't care, they still use them when it makes sense to use them. There is no better mainstream alternative for accounting than Excel right now, period.
        belter 8mo ago
        Not a single reply on the technical and governance arguments? I think we agree...this site is indeed full of idiots confidently spouting nonsense. :-)
  - torginus 8mo ago
    Afaik Excel is wicked fast at math (can handle ginormous spreadsheets, some real magic under the hood), while correctly doing decimal based math (1/5 is 0.2 exactly, not some floating point monstrosity)
  - belter 8mo ago
    A yes PWC :-) That is what I would expect :-)) I just hope the divine powers of Luca Pacioli might help you, before is too late. A whole set of accounting bodies and real world disasters expressly advise against its use and spreadsheets in general. You even have dedicated pages... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spreadsheet_mistakes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spreadsheet_mistakes EuSPRIG Horror Stories - Spreadsheet mistakes https://eusprig.org/research-info/horror-stories/ https://eusprig.org/research-info/horror-stories/ For example the (ICAEW) UK chartered accountants explicitly warn auditors. And research has shown that around 94% in these contexts contain errors: "Errors in Operational Spreadsheets" - https://faculty.tuck.dartmouth.edu/images/uploads/faculty/serp/Errors.pdf https://faculty.tuck.dartmouth.edu/images/uploads/faculty/se... Also... Excel does not use exact decimal arithmetic. It stores numbers in IEEE-754 binary floating point, which cannot precisely represent many decimal values used in accounting. Microsoft documents this explicitly: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/troubleshoot/excel/floating-point-arithmetic-inaccurate-result https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/troubleshoot/excel/... It also only preserves 15 significant digits and silently zeroes anything beyond that: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/excel-specifications-and-limits-1672b34d-7043-467e-8e27-269d656771c3 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/excel-specificati... So this means: – decimal values are approximated – rounding errors accumulate – large financial values lose precision – results depend on formula structure and rounding order That alone disqualifies it as Accounting ledger. Historically you have lots of famous examples of bad outcomes of treating Excel as financial infrastructure... The JPMorgan London Whale - $6B loss A flawed Excel risk model and copy paste errors understated risk and helped produce multi-billion losses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_JPMorgan_Chase_trading_loss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_JPMorgan_Chase_trading_lo... TransAlta energy trading — $24M loss Simple spreadsheet row misalignment in bidding model cost aprox 10% of the company profit. https://www.lumeer.io/spreadsheet-for-project-management/ https://www.lumeer.io/spreadsheet-for-project-management/ Fannie Mae - $1.3B reporting error wrong spreadsheet formula caused more than $1B accounting misstatement. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/oct/28/microsoft-excels-bloopers-reel-40-years-of-spreadsheet-errors https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/oct/28/microsoft... https://archive.is/w1cjj https://archive.is/w1cjj Fidelity Magellan — $2.6B error Missing minus sign in a spreadsheet overstated capital gains by billions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spreadsheet_mistakes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spreadsheet_mistakes Large audit firms also publish entire risk frameworks, ( and I am sure PWC does also...) explaining why uncontrolled spreadsheets are a major source of financial misstatement in the first place.
- tomjakubowski 8mo ago
  An Excel spreadsheet is a bad source of truth for data. It's fine for analytics though.
- bdangubic 8mo ago
  [flagged]
- belter 8mo ago
  HN ignorance on display... The Journal of Accountancy - "Bugged by Excel’s calculation errors" - https://www.journalofaccountancy.com/issues/2014/mar/excel-calculation-errors/ https://www.journalofaccountancy.com/issues/2014/mar/excel-c... ICAEW (Institute of Chartered Accountants) — "Rounding Errors Revisited" (Excel Tips #447) - https://www.icaew.com/technical/technology/excel-community/excel-community-articles/2022/excel-tips-and-tricks-447 https://www.icaew.com/technical/technology/excel-community/e... Just a reminder that an accountant who might say "I use Currency format" is still working in binary floating point as the format is just used as a display mask. And using VBA macros with the Currency type will hit problems at the boundary, when values move between the worksheet and the macro. The tool is broken in a way that proper accounting software is not... "Floating-point arithmetic may give inaccurate results in Excel" - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/microsoft-365-apps/excel/floating-point-arithmetic-inaccurate-result https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/microsoft-365...
- Bluescreenbuddy 8mo ago
  [flagged]
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
someuser54541 8mo ago
I feel like I'd be really skeptical of results from a non-deterministic model for something as precise as accounting....
- dr_dshiv 8mo ago
  Yeah, seriously, I use AI all day every day but that terrifies me.
- purplerabbit 8mo ago
  I know plenty of nondeterministic accountants
- aaaalone 8mo ago
  With tool use you do reduce the risks. It's not like these models calculate.
- nl 8mo ago
  The deterministic part (calculations) is done by Excel. The non-deterministic part is turning human instructions ("calculate the NPV over 10 years for X given Y") into Excel. This is already a non-deterministic process (humans are non-deterministic!). The question is if an AI model can be more reliable than humans, and I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be. The correct path is pretty clear, so the logits for following that path are going to be a long way from off-path. For something like this the real problem is training the model to use Excel (which will show up by it being confused which sheet it is on or trying to use the wrong window or things like that), not the non-determinism.
  - sdf2erf 8mo ago
    "The non-deterministic part is turning human instructions ("calculate the NPV over 10 years for X given Y") into Excel." erm theres an NPV function built in excel.
    - hugh-avherald 8mo ago
      But humans non-deterministically use that or use a hand-rolled formula.

by typpo 8mo ago

sdf2erf 8mo ago

[flagged]

belter 8mo ago

Dont use Excel for accounting....

sdf2erf 8mo ago
[flagged]
- Pooge 8mo ago
  Do they use it as a source of truth or do they import that data in a spreadsheet to let the user make their own calculations? Not the person you responded to but I'm genuinely curious.
- _se 8mo ago
  This entire site is full of idiots confidently spouting nonsense. Probably time to move on. "Don't use Excel for accounting" has to be the dumbest thing I've read in a year, even with all of the LLM bullshit going on. And that's including the people this morning who are apparently excited for LLMs to file their taxes.
  - kami23 8mo ago
    I've been having the same feelings lately, especially around the AI doomers coming in with some weird observations that make no sense. I usually don't comment, but seeing a lot of these types of overgeneralized responses. 'oh you do x? You don't do y? You're an idiot' That's not productive.
  - belter 8mo ago
    I have the impression today you will be one of the 10,000: https://xkcd.com/1053/ https://xkcd.com/1053/ But you are correct, this entire site is full of idiots confidently spouting nonsense... :-) "Floating-point arithmetic may give inaccurate results in Excel" - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/microsoft-365-apps/excel/floating-point-arithmetic-inaccurate-result https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/microsoft-365... "Classification of Spreadsheet Errors" - https://arxiv.org/pdf/0805.4224 https://arxiv.org/pdf/0805.4224 "A study conducted by Coopers & Lybrand found errors in 90% of the spreadsheets audited." "Impact of Errors in Operational Spreadsheets" - https://arxiv.org/abs/0801.0715 https://arxiv.org/abs/0801.0715 "What We Don’t Know About Spreadsheet Errors Today" - https://arxiv.org/pdf/1602.02601 https://arxiv.org/pdf/1602.02601
    - _se 8mo ago
      You don't really deserve a response, but even the idea that you could tell someone to not use Excel for accounting and seriously project that you know anything about how accounting works in the real world is hilarious. You could think 500 random internet articles - it doesn't matter. The assertion is still ridiculous. You literally will not be able to get a job as an accountant without being able to use Excel. Don't be an idiot. You can also link to hundreds of articles showing that dynamic types cause errors. People don't care, they still use them when it makes sense to use them. There is no better mainstream alternative for accounting than Excel right now, period.
      - belter 8mo ago
        Not a single reply on the technical and governance arguments? I think we agree...this site is indeed full of idiots confidently spouting nonsense. :-)
- torginus 8mo ago
  Afaik Excel is wicked fast at math (can handle ginormous spreadsheets, some real magic under the hood), while correctly doing decimal based math (1/5 is 0.2 exactly, not some floating point monstrosity)
- belter 8mo ago
  A yes PWC :-) That is what I would expect :-)) I just hope the divine powers of Luca Pacioli might help you, before is too late. A whole set of accounting bodies and real world disasters expressly advise against its use and spreadsheets in general. You even have dedicated pages... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spreadsheet_mistakes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spreadsheet_mistakes EuSPRIG Horror Stories - Spreadsheet mistakes https://eusprig.org/research-info/horror-stories/ https://eusprig.org/research-info/horror-stories/ For example the (ICAEW) UK chartered accountants explicitly warn auditors. And research has shown that around 94% in these contexts contain errors: "Errors in Operational Spreadsheets" - https://faculty.tuck.dartmouth.edu/images/uploads/faculty/serp/Errors.pdf https://faculty.tuck.dartmouth.edu/images/uploads/faculty/se... Also... Excel does not use exact decimal arithmetic. It stores numbers in IEEE-754 binary floating point, which cannot precisely represent many decimal values used in accounting. Microsoft documents this explicitly: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/troubleshoot/excel/floating-point-arithmetic-inaccurate-result https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/troubleshoot/excel/... It also only preserves 15 significant digits and silently zeroes anything beyond that: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/excel-specifications-and-limits-1672b34d-7043-467e-8e27-269d656771c3 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/excel-specificati... So this means: – decimal values are approximated – rounding errors accumulate – large financial values lose precision – results depend on formula structure and rounding order That alone disqualifies it as Accounting ledger. Historically you have lots of famous examples of bad outcomes of treating Excel as financial infrastructure... The JPMorgan London Whale - $6B loss A flawed Excel risk model and copy paste errors understated risk and helped produce multi-billion losses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_JPMorgan_Chase_trading_loss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_JPMorgan_Chase_trading_lo... TransAlta energy trading — $24M loss Simple spreadsheet row misalignment in bidding model cost aprox 10% of the company profit. https://www.lumeer.io/spreadsheet-for-project-management/ https://www.lumeer.io/spreadsheet-for-project-management/ Fannie Mae - $1.3B reporting error wrong spreadsheet formula caused more than $1B accounting misstatement. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/oct/28/microsoft-excels-bloopers-reel-40-years-of-spreadsheet-errors https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/oct/28/microsoft... https://archive.is/w1cjj https://archive.is/w1cjj Fidelity Magellan — $2.6B error Missing minus sign in a spreadsheet overstated capital gains by billions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spreadsheet_mistakes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spreadsheet_mistakes Large audit firms also publish entire risk frameworks, ( and I am sure PWC does also...) explaining why uncontrolled spreadsheets are a major source of financial misstatement in the first place.
tomjakubowski 8mo ago
An Excel spreadsheet is a bad source of truth for data. It's fine for analytics though.
bdangubic 8mo ago
[flagged]
belter 8mo ago
HN ignorance on display... The Journal of Accountancy - "Bugged by Excel’s calculation errors" - https://www.journalofaccountancy.com/issues/2014/mar/excel-calculation-errors/ https://www.journalofaccountancy.com/issues/2014/mar/excel-c... ICAEW (Institute of Chartered Accountants) — "Rounding Errors Revisited" (Excel Tips #447) - https://www.icaew.com/technical/technology/excel-community/excel-community-articles/2022/excel-tips-and-tricks-447 https://www.icaew.com/technical/technology/excel-community/e... Just a reminder that an accountant who might say "I use Currency format" is still working in binary floating point as the format is just used as a display mask. And using VBA macros with the Currency type will hit problems at the boundary, when values move between the worksheet and the macro. The tool is broken in a way that proper accounting software is not... "Floating-point arithmetic may give inaccurate results in Excel" - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/microsoft-365-apps/excel/floating-point-arithmetic-inaccurate-result https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/microsoft-365...
Bluescreenbuddy 8mo ago
[flagged]

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]

someuser54541 8mo ago

I feel like I'd be really skeptical of results from a non-deterministic model for something as precise as accounting....

dr_dshiv 8mo ago
Yeah, seriously, I use AI all day every day but that terrifies me.
purplerabbit 8mo ago
I know plenty of nondeterministic accountants
aaaalone 8mo ago
With tool use you do reduce the risks. It's not like these models calculate.
nl 8mo ago
The deterministic part (calculations) is done by Excel. The non-deterministic part is turning human instructions ("calculate the NPV over 10 years for X given Y") into Excel. This is already a non-deterministic process (humans are non-deterministic!). The question is if an AI model can be more reliable than humans, and I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be. The correct path is pretty clear, so the logits for following that path are going to be a long way from off-path. For something like this the real problem is training the model to use Excel (which will show up by it being confused which sheet it is on or trying to use the wrong window or things like that), not the non-determinism.
- sdf2erf 8mo ago
  "The non-deterministic part is turning human instructions ("calculate the NPV over 10 years for X given Y") into Excel." erm theres an NPV function built in excel.
  - hugh-avherald 8mo ago
    But humans non-deterministically use that or use a hand-rolled formula.