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Help me here Why can’t a company in the EU make a secure video/voice chat app? There’s are EU companies that make teams alternatives: https://euroalternativ

Help me here Why can’t a company in the EU make a secure video/voice chat app? There’s are EU companies that make teams alternatives: https://euroalternative.eu/alternatives/microsoft-teams https://euroalternative.eu/alternatives/microsoft-teams Even if those don’t work SAP, Dassault, etc… make massively complex software and services across multiple verticals and could trivially ship a competitor

arielcostas 9mo ago
Why reinvent the wheel when there are already open standards like Matrix or XMPP that can be adapted to your use case?
- AndrewKemendo 9mo ago
  Matrix isn’t a 1:1 replacement for teams
  - NewJazz 9mo ago
    Explain
  - input_sh 9mo ago
    ...thank god?
  - arielcostas 9mo ago
    Depends on what features of teams you use, since it kind-of became an "everything" app
  - steve1977 9mo ago
    Teams minus the bloat and bugs?
pyrale 9mo ago
> Why can’t a company in the EU make a secure video/voice chat app? What makes you think they can't? Microsoft's corporate edge isn't merely the product, it's also an army of sales, entrenched corporate markets/clients, lock-in, etc. You could have a better version of their product and still get eaten alive.
- m4rtink 9mo ago
  And don't forget Copilot! ;-)
- repelsteeltje 9mo ago
  In the Netherlands, a lot of government systems aren't procured from the Microsofts of this world. There are a lot of middle men (consultancy agencies) involved that over the years have helped build a strong ecosystem with lots of expertise around Microsoft and related suppliers. So indeed, it's not like you can just replace a software product (or service) by some EU or open alternative. And there are huge vested interests.
  - kuerbel 9mo ago
    Same in Germany. I think in any European country.
saubeidl 9mo ago
The french government recently did: https://github.com/suitenumerique/meet https://github.com/suitenumerique/meet
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
blitzar 9mo ago
Jitsi Formerly - skype Matrix
cardanome 9mo ago
I mean German police is using Palantir. There is nothing magic about Palantir, especially not about the subset of Palantir that the German police uses as we have stricter data privacy laws. You might think that would be a strategic risk not worth taking especially with the US getting more hostile towards Europe but here we are. Why? Honestly I don't have a good answer other than well the whole system is rotten, corruption, lobbyism, take your pick.
badc0ffee 9mo ago
The idea of the likes of SAP spinning up a new product quickly and painlessly seems like a joke.
- hooverd 9mo ago
  In defense of SAP, their product really is built to be configurable for every use case under the sun.
Arathorn 9mo ago
Element’s topco may be UK based for now, but the vast majority of our business and footprint is in the EU - https://element.io/en/about https://element.io/en/about. All but one of our mobile app team is in the EU for instance (and when we started, the UK was too :|)
iso1631 9mo ago
Zoom came along with a securre video/voice chat, sure it's American, but it was by far the world leader Microsoft then used its monopoly in office tools to push Teams to everyone You can't compete with a trillion dollar company offering your product as a bundle your clients already pay for, even if your product is better. Even VC money runs out eventually
- steve1977 9mo ago
  To be fair, Microsoft already had Skype (for Business) and NetMeeting before that. It's not like they were new to that market. NetMeeting existed for more than a decade before Zoom even came into existence. Zoom had COVID-19 play in it's favor, that's about it.
  - FuriouslyAdrift 9mo ago
    Skype for Business is the VoIP component for Teams, now. Sharepoint is the file service for Teams, too. Basically, Teams is a front end for a bunch of old Mircosoft cloud services... plus chat. Actually more than one chat as teams channels chat is a separate tech stack from private chat. It used to be much more monlothic and then the Sharepoint people got their hooks into it.
- Y-bar 9mo ago
  Zoom has long been the most unsecure video/voice application. Remember how they installed an open web server on people's computers which could be accessed by anyone through the web? https://infosecwriteups.com/zoom-zero-day-4-million-webcams-maybe-an-rce-just-get-them-to-visit-your-website-ac75c83f4ef5 https://infosecwriteups.com/zoom-zero-day-4-million-webcams-... Apple had to step in and patch it for them: https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/10/apple-silent-update-zoom-app/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/10/apple-silent-update-zoom-a... Or when they sent your chat data to Facebook? https://www.vice.com/en/article/zoom-ios-app-sends-data-to-facebook-even-if-you-dont-have-a-facebook-account/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/zoom-ios-app-sends-data-to-f... How it was discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22703000 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22703000 Or when Zoom was leaking private information? https://www.vice.com/en/article/zoom-leaking-email-addresses-photos/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/zoom-leaking-email-addresses... Or do you remember how those geniuses rolled their own crypto? https://citizenlab.ca/research/move-fast-roll-your-own-crypto-a-quick-look-at-the-confidentiality-of-zoom-meetings/ https://citizenlab.ca/research/move-fast-roll-your-own-crypt... Or maybe you remember that Zoom has the ability to listen in in real-time on meetings held on their platform? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55372493 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55372493
mmooss 9mo ago
One major issue is system management: Installing another app, such as Signal, on your personal computer is one thing. On 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 computers, installing it, configuring it, changing settings, updating it, backing it up, locking down settings from user changes (such as retention) - all that requires special tools to do it efficiently at scale. Without the management tools, no way that bit of IT can be used. The most common tool by far is Microsoft's Active Directory and Group Policy, which has the best compatibility with Windows and with Microsoft applications, including Office. If AD/GP is already deployed, imagine the burden of deploying a second tool to your 1K/10K/100K computers, setting up the server, learning to use it ... you're not doing that for one application unless it's very valuable. The exception is a tool bundled with the application for its own management, but that's going to have to be efficient to deploy, learn, and use to be worthwhile. Therefore, for many organizations, any application must be effectively managed by AD/GP, which requires the application's developer to create AD/GP management components. Do Matrix, Signal, or any other application have system management tools?
b-mmxx 9mo ago
There is Wire with HQ in Berlin, Germany. https://wire.com/en/ https://wire.com/en/

arielcostas 9mo ago

Why reinvent the wheel when there are already open standards like Matrix or XMPP that can be adapted to your use case?

AndrewKemendo 9mo ago
Matrix isn’t a 1:1 replacement for teams
- NewJazz 9mo ago
  Explain
- input_sh 9mo ago
  ...thank god?
- arielcostas 9mo ago
  Depends on what features of teams you use, since it kind-of became an "everything" app
- steve1977 9mo ago
  Teams minus the bloat and bugs?

pyrale 9mo ago

> Why can’t a company in the EU make a secure video/voice chat app? What makes you think they can't? Microsoft's corporate edge isn't merely the product, it's also an army of sales, entrenched corporate markets/clients, lock-in, etc. You could have a better version of their product and still get eaten alive.

m4rtink 9mo ago
And don't forget Copilot! ;-)
repelsteeltje 9mo ago
In the Netherlands, a lot of government systems aren't procured from the Microsofts of this world. There are a lot of middle men (consultancy agencies) involved that over the years have helped build a strong ecosystem with lots of expertise around Microsoft and related suppliers. So indeed, it's not like you can just replace a software product (or service) by some EU or open alternative. And there are huge vested interests.
- kuerbel 9mo ago
  Same in Germany. I think in any European country.

saubeidl 9mo ago

The french government recently did: https://github.com/suitenumerique/meet https://github.com/suitenumerique/meet

deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]

blitzar 9mo ago

Jitsi Formerly - skype Matrix

cardanome 9mo ago

I mean German police is using Palantir. There is nothing magic about Palantir, especially not about the subset of Palantir that the German police uses as we have stricter data privacy laws. You might think that would be a strategic risk not worth taking especially with the US getting more hostile towards Europe but here we are. Why? Honestly I don't have a good answer other than well the whole system is rotten, corruption, lobbyism, take your pick.

badc0ffee 9mo ago

The idea of the likes of SAP spinning up a new product quickly and painlessly seems like a joke.

hooverd 9mo ago
In defense of SAP, their product really is built to be configurable for every use case under the sun.

Arathorn 9mo ago

Element’s topco may be UK based for now, but the vast majority of our business and footprint is in the EU - https://element.io/en/about https://element.io/en/about. All but one of our mobile app team is in the EU for instance (and when we started, the UK was too :|)

iso1631 9mo ago

Zoom came along with a securre video/voice chat, sure it's American, but it was by far the world leader Microsoft then used its monopoly in office tools to push Teams to everyone You can't compete with a trillion dollar company offering your product as a bundle your clients already pay for, even if your product is better. Even VC money runs out eventually

steve1977 9mo ago
To be fair, Microsoft already had Skype (for Business) and NetMeeting before that. It's not like they were new to that market. NetMeeting existed for more than a decade before Zoom even came into existence. Zoom had COVID-19 play in it's favor, that's about it.
- FuriouslyAdrift 9mo ago
  Skype for Business is the VoIP component for Teams, now. Sharepoint is the file service for Teams, too. Basically, Teams is a front end for a bunch of old Mircosoft cloud services... plus chat. Actually more than one chat as teams channels chat is a separate tech stack from private chat. It used to be much more monlothic and then the Sharepoint people got their hooks into it.
Y-bar 9mo ago
Zoom has long been the most unsecure video/voice application. Remember how they installed an open web server on people's computers which could be accessed by anyone through the web? https://infosecwriteups.com/zoom-zero-day-4-million-webcams-maybe-an-rce-just-get-them-to-visit-your-website-ac75c83f4ef5 https://infosecwriteups.com/zoom-zero-day-4-million-webcams-... Apple had to step in and patch it for them: https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/10/apple-silent-update-zoom-app/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/10/apple-silent-update-zoom-a... Or when they sent your chat data to Facebook? https://www.vice.com/en/article/zoom-ios-app-sends-data-to-facebook-even-if-you-dont-have-a-facebook-account/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/zoom-ios-app-sends-data-to-f... How it was discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22703000 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22703000 Or when Zoom was leaking private information? https://www.vice.com/en/article/zoom-leaking-email-addresses-photos/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/zoom-leaking-email-addresses... Or do you remember how those geniuses rolled their own crypto? https://citizenlab.ca/research/move-fast-roll-your-own-crypto-a-quick-look-at-the-confidentiality-of-zoom-meetings/ https://citizenlab.ca/research/move-fast-roll-your-own-crypt... Or maybe you remember that Zoom has the ability to listen in in real-time on meetings held on their platform? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55372493 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55372493

mmooss 9mo ago

One major issue is system management: Installing another app, such as Signal, on your personal computer is one thing. On 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 computers, installing it, configuring it, changing settings, updating it, backing it up, locking down settings from user changes (such as retention) - all that requires special tools to do it efficiently at scale. Without the management tools, no way that bit of IT can be used. The most common tool by far is Microsoft's Active Directory and Group Policy, which has the best compatibility with Windows and with Microsoft applications, including Office. If AD/GP is already deployed, imagine the burden of deploying a second tool to your 1K/10K/100K computers, setting up the server, learning to use it ... you're not doing that for one application unless it's very valuable. The exception is a tool bundled with the application for its own management, but that's going to have to be efficient to deploy, learn, and use to be worthwhile. Therefore, for many organizations, any application must be effectively managed by AD/GP, which requires the application's developer to create AD/GP management components. Do Matrix, Signal, or any other application have system management tools?

b-mmxx 9mo ago

There is Wire with HQ in Berlin, Germany. https://wire.com/en/ https://wire.com/en/