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>Calling the software that Zynga makes a "game" is insulting to real games. No True Scotsman fallacy. Just because you don't think they're games doesn't make i

>Calling the software that Zynga makes a "game" is insulting to real games. No True Scotsman fallacy. Just because you don't think they're games doesn't make it fact. They make games, and people criticize them for it. The only thing your post did was help better prove OP's point.

danilocampos 14y ago
They make crappy games and people criticize them for the crappiness, not the game part.
Karunamon 14y ago
>They make games, and people criticize them for it. First, Zynga is not criticized for making games, they're criticized for making Skinner boxes and passing them off as games. Quality, in other words. Second, just because you think they make games doesn't make it fact. Definition of a game per Google: A form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck. Zynga's "games" (with very few exceptions) lack any form of skill, strength, or luck. Push button, receive reward, pay us cash or spam your friends and you can push the button more often. That is literally all there is to most Zynga games. I'm not even engaging in hyperbole here! Compare with even the most grindtastic MMO's out there, even the most rehashed FPS or football franchise you can think of, and there's still a skill component that these wannabes can't grok.
- meepmorp 14y ago
  > Definition of a game per Google: > A form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck. Resorting to a dictionary definition to argue a point is nearly always a sign you've got a weak argument. But in this case, I want to point out the "esp." just after the first comma in the definition you cite. It means especially. In context, that means that games need not adhere to the conditions specified in the subordinate clause. Also, I swear Wittgenstein had something to say on this topic.
  - Karunamon 14y ago
    >Resorting to a dictionary definition to argue a point is nearly always a sign you've got a weak argument. Or a sign that your opponent is redefining words to fit their argument instead of using the commonly accepted one. Are you telling me it's unfair to refer to an authoritative source as to the meaning of a word? In any case, there has to be some kind of definition or else the word becomes meaningless. By defining Farmville as a "game", you could just as easily define twiddling numbers on an Excel sheet as a "game". Where do you stop? Is Farmville a game just because it has a pretty skin?
    - meepmorp 14y ago
      > Are you telling me it's unfair to refer to an authoritative source as to the meaning of a word? Unfair, no. A sign that the argument is weak, yes. Particularly in this case. Also, use is meaning. Dictionaries are authoritative only in the sense that they capture current use at the time of publication. Even in that case, they're often lacking in some word senses and/or connotation because they don't exist in the writer's dialect. >By defining Farmville as a "game", you could just as easily define twiddling numbers on an Excel sheet as a "game". Are you twiddling the numbers as a form of play? Then yes, that'd be a game according to the definition given above. Games don't need to be challenging, or even all that entertaining.
MartinCron 14y ago
No True Scotsman fallacy It is, at least for me, more just transparent snobbery than the No True Scotsman fallacy. The same way some video game journalists don't like to cover Minecraft, as it's "not a real video game".
- eropple 14y ago
  Or it's an interpretation that the motives of the creator are important. In my mind, Zynga "games" are to games what crack dealers are to entrepreneurs. It may be a subset, but it's a subset about which I believe quite firmly that those that participate should be shunned. They are an unethical company that produce products that I can describe only as predatory. (And, yes, World of Warcraft falls in the same bucket.)
gameshot911 14y ago
Side discussion concerning the No True Scotsman fallacy. If 100/100 people agreed with "A", does the fallacy still apply? Can you say "just because everyone thinks 'X' doesn't make it fact"^? ^I know that people believing something doesn't define facts - in this case I'm wondering if the fallacy would still apply.
- StavrosK 14y ago
  Of course it would still apply. The difference here is that some people have a different (yet still immutable) definition for what a game is. The fallacy is when you keep changing the definition to fit the data.
  - Karunamon 14y ago
    Except that, at least in my case, no such change was made. I took the definition I used directly from a dictionary. It looks like in this case someone is trying really hard to shout down an argument as fallacy when no such error is being made.
    - StavrosK 14y ago
      I know, that's what I was saying.

danilocampos 14y ago

They make crappy games and people criticize them for the crappiness, not the game part.

Karunamon 14y ago

>They make games, and people criticize them for it. First, Zynga is not criticized for making games, they're criticized for making Skinner boxes and passing them off as games. Quality, in other words. Second, just because you think they make games doesn't make it fact. Definition of a game per Google: A form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck. Zynga's "games" (with very few exceptions) lack any form of skill, strength, or luck. Push button, receive reward, pay us cash or spam your friends and you can push the button more often. That is literally all there is to most Zynga games. I'm not even engaging in hyperbole here! Compare with even the most grindtastic MMO's out there, even the most rehashed FPS or football franchise you can think of, and there's still a skill component that these wannabes can't grok.

meepmorp 14y ago
> Definition of a game per Google: > A form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck. Resorting to a dictionary definition to argue a point is nearly always a sign you've got a weak argument. But in this case, I want to point out the "esp." just after the first comma in the definition you cite. It means especially. In context, that means that games need not adhere to the conditions specified in the subordinate clause. Also, I swear Wittgenstein had something to say on this topic.
- Karunamon 14y ago
  >Resorting to a dictionary definition to argue a point is nearly always a sign you've got a weak argument. Or a sign that your opponent is redefining words to fit their argument instead of using the commonly accepted one. Are you telling me it's unfair to refer to an authoritative source as to the meaning of a word? In any case, there has to be some kind of definition or else the word becomes meaningless. By defining Farmville as a "game", you could just as easily define twiddling numbers on an Excel sheet as a "game". Where do you stop? Is Farmville a game just because it has a pretty skin?
  - meepmorp 14y ago
    > Are you telling me it's unfair to refer to an authoritative source as to the meaning of a word? Unfair, no. A sign that the argument is weak, yes. Particularly in this case. Also, use is meaning. Dictionaries are authoritative only in the sense that they capture current use at the time of publication. Even in that case, they're often lacking in some word senses and/or connotation because they don't exist in the writer's dialect. >By defining Farmville as a "game", you could just as easily define twiddling numbers on an Excel sheet as a "game". Are you twiddling the numbers as a form of play? Then yes, that'd be a game according to the definition given above. Games don't need to be challenging, or even all that entertaining.

MartinCron 14y ago

No True Scotsman fallacy It is, at least for me, more just transparent snobbery than the No True Scotsman fallacy. The same way some video game journalists don't like to cover Minecraft, as it's "not a real video game".

eropple 14y ago
Or it's an interpretation that the motives of the creator are important. In my mind, Zynga "games" are to games what crack dealers are to entrepreneurs. It may be a subset, but it's a subset about which I believe quite firmly that those that participate should be shunned. They are an unethical company that produce products that I can describe only as predatory. (And, yes, World of Warcraft falls in the same bucket.)

gameshot911 14y ago

Side discussion concerning the No True Scotsman fallacy. If 100/100 people agreed with "A", does the fallacy still apply? Can you say "just because everyone thinks 'X' doesn't make it fact"^? ^I know that people believing something doesn't define facts - in this case I'm wondering if the fallacy would still apply.

StavrosK 14y ago
Of course it would still apply. The difference here is that some people have a different (yet still immutable) definition for what a game is. The fallacy is when you keep changing the definition to fit the data.
- Karunamon 14y ago
  Except that, at least in my case, no such change was made. I took the definition I used directly from a dictionary. It looks like in this case someone is trying really hard to shout down an argument as fallacy when no such error is being made.
  - StavrosK 14y ago
    I know, that's what I was saying.