8 ms·

Conceptually, I love every bit of bad Zynga news. I like to be reassured that a company will, in the long term, fail when its products are cynically designed to

Conceptually, I love every bit of bad Zynga news. I like to be reassured that a company will, in the long term, fail when its products are cynically designed to manipulate. That a company will fail when their strategy assumes it's okay to blatantly, consistently, continuously lift design from other firms and products. Practically, though, bad Zynga news feels terrible. Because the guys who architected this repugnant exploitation machine already got paid. They made millions selling their stock before the market truly understood what a shit business they were running. Meanwhile, front-line employees sat with their plummeting stock locked up. So any bad Zynga news is nothing more than notice that yet another group of hardworking folks is, somehow, getting fucked over, despite their leadership enjoying tremendous rewards. Very frustrating to watch.

sbochins 14y ago
I guess you could argue that Zynga employees have been dancing with the devil for the past couple of years. Any Zynga employee I ever talked to was very open about how they aren't really making games. They are just cynically generating revenue over flaws in the human condition. I think if you work for a screwy company like Zynga you should be very paranoid about cashing out of the company. If they have such a low opinion of their customers, who is to say they won't have the same sentiment towards their employees.
- LnxPrgr3 14y ago
  > If they have such a low opinion of their customers, who is to say they won't have the same sentiment towards their employees. Anyone remember this from almost a year ago? http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-57322150-17/zynga-to-employees-give-back-our-stock-or-youll-be-fired/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-57322150-17/zynga-to-emplo... I get the distinct impression Zynga only has a high opinion of money.
  - dredmorbius 14y ago
    Oh yes, I remember. How did that ever pan out? Were employees forced to renounce their prior options grants, or did the pressure change management's mind on this? Otherwise, yes, Zynga's present situation's been a long time coming, pity it's the bastards who made off like bandits.
Jach 14y ago
I find it very hard to feel any pity for the employees that knowingly got involved with such a company, and I would be surprised if many of Zynga's best and most hardworking employees didn't jump ship long ago.
- enjo 14y ago
  What about the ones who were acquired into Zynga?
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    I am more concerned about all the non-technical employees they have, who may have not been as well equipped to recognize Zynga for what it is. Most of the artists probably should have been able to recognize it (with all that tracing going on...), but employees more removed than that could have been relatively blindsided.
    - rohern 14y ago
      If they have access to the internet, they have had plenty of opportunities to read about it. The shameful behavior of Zynga is public knowledge and has been for years. Also > (with all that tracing going on...) :D
      - salemh 14y ago
        Yet, the market for non-technical employee's is not nearly as supply-centric as demand.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  Any developer with half a brain should know that the game industry should be avoided like the plague. Long working hours, abusive management, racism (the Kixeye debacle), the issues just go on and on. Take patio11's advice and go into B2B, you'll make money hand over fist with much more manageable working hours.
jmsduran 14y ago
As a software developer who lives in Austin, I find it disconcerting whenever I hear about developer layoffs, especially in our city. I hope this is just an isolated incident of bad company strategy than an overall industry trend.
- MartinCron 14y ago
  I feel the same way whenever I see large developer layoffs in my city. I also feel unnerved when I see unsustainable companies go on unsustainable hiring binges. It's like the first scene in a horror movie. Are you crazy? Don't go in there! He'll kill you!
- chris123 14y ago
  On the bright side, there may be some good people to be found in the ash pile.
  - malandrew 14y ago
    Layoffs are horrible when they happen, but 6 months later after the dust has settled and smoke blown over, everyone who was talented and laid off is now better off because the number of weak ties they now have to people in other companies has multiplied dramatically in a short time.
- driverdan 14y ago
  Luckily for them there is plenty of opportunity in our city. I've yet to find a local tech company that isn't hiring.
- oacgnol 14y ago
  As someone who was a developer in Austin as of a few months ago, I can imagine other Austin area companies salivating at the fresh infusion of developers into the market. They should be okay (or at least I hope so!).
- ericabiz 14y ago
  Come to some meetups here in Austin. I can't get through a meetup here without a company announcing that they are hiring. Especially the more niche meetups like the Python Web Meetup: http://www.meetup.com/austinwebpythonusergroup/events/88067882/ http://www.meetup.com/austinwebpythonusergroup/events/880678... My startup is based out of Capital Factory, and if you even just walked in the door during Friday happy hour and announced that you were a developer here in Austin looking for a job, hungry funded startup owners would descend on you like wolves. All that to say: You have nothing to be worried about. And also, come to more events...especially ones held at Capital Factory. :)
cstejerean 14y ago
From what we've seen on HN it didn't sound like Zynga was a place with great work conditions or interesting work. To the extent people went to work there hoping to get rich one day by dumping their shares on a greater sucker, it's hard to really feel bad for them.
bduerst 14y ago
I hate to admit it, but the fact that casinos continue to exist goes to show that the Zynga model will probably hold true. Both employ game dynamics to get participants to part with their money - the only difference being that casinos require you to pay up front, and Zynga doesn't have the same level of overhead. The company will only face a race to the bottom, though, as others enter this space and competition for user time ramps up.
- babuskov 14y ago
  Important distinction is that in casinos players can make money. Well, as we know, only a small percentage does and overall it is the house that always wins, but humans are very bad at judging laws of probability. This "flaw" is still not in Zynga's games, and since FB prevents gambling with real rewards it will continue to be so. Your last sentence will probably hold true, unless they start producing something innovative and useful for a change..
  - bduerst 14y ago
    I would argue that money rewards can be equal to in-game rewards, since Zynga players are obviously willing to part money for the latter, but that boils down to a matter of opinion. It will be interesting to see if management bails from Zynga over the coming quarters. Personally, I would watch and see if management unloads on any stock or options.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      Without money awards I suspect you will see far fewer instances of Gambler's Ruin, or other more subtle profit-generating phenomenon. As far as I can tell, there can be no sense of "recouping losses".
      - bduerst 14y ago
        But you do get the benefit of using arbitrary "point" conversions, i.e. $10 buys 8 coins, $20 buys 18 coins, etc. It makes it harder for the user to estimate the real value when purchasing, and thus easier to overspend.
ghshephard 14y ago
Well, if it makes you feel better, I had a conversation with a Zynga employee last night, who is pretty happy about leaving the company. In particular, he wants to go do something he believes in, and to quote him, "and i don't hugely believe in selling virtual cows" So - to some degree, the crash and possible termination of Zynga's business model, enables these people to escape the company. If the stock had value, then they would be trapped in that really horrible (for some of them) career. When the stock has no value - they are all now free(er) to go - no handcuffs.
- danilocampos 14y ago
  This is a really important perspective I hadn't considered. Money can be a very corrosive incentive. If, say, you have student loans or a family to support, you might decide to trade your personal sanity for a payoff. Glad the decision to leave is easier, at least.
- freshhawk 14y ago
  That is a good point, the job market for developers is great right now and they've just freed up some talent to hopefully work on something useful.
- samstave 14y ago
  When i worked for a company that was acquired by Lockheed Martin, immediately upon the announcement of acquisition, several employees resigned saying they could not knowing work for a war monger. Their conviction was greater than the potential wealth and very commendable. Your comment insinuates that these employees had no morals and were freed by the failure. This is actually a fucked up position. There are many factors that play into this, the most significant of which is the employees living paycheck to paycheck where they cannot actually leave on a high ground position due to their needing the money... and your point is that "well, at least the company failed freeing them of any moral risk of staying with the company should it have succeeded and trapped them with lucrative options!" To this I say, fully and openly: Fuck every single thing about Zynga and the attitudes and policies it may beget. FUCK ZYNGA and I have zero sympathy for any of its employees in any regard. I have been openly decrying this company for years - and I still will - I can't stand such bullshit in any industry and Silicon Valley should SHUN them and be ashamed of every relation to this company. We are trying to make a better world here, aren't we folks? If not, then fuck you - because if your goal is only self-enrichment then I despise you.
ChuckMcM 14y ago
I get mixed emotions. Yes, companies that do 'bad things' ideally are corrected out of existence by the market. I never like to see anyone lose their jobs, because at some level the rank and file of the company is the blood coursing through its veins. And as Marissa Meyer and others have re-iterated over the last few months, companies don't do thing people do things. So people who are getting things done and fighting the good fight, its always painful to see them go. On the money thing though you really need to come to terms with the fact that there is way more random chance than there is earned riches in the tech business. For every person who got rich being the most brilliant mind on the problem at the right time, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people who got rich just because who ever was sitting in the seat they happened to be sitting in also got rich. The folks who just happened to be at Sun when it founded, or HP, or Google, or FaceBook. Randomness, not skill, plays a huge role there. There was a guy at Sun whom I helped manage out of the organization, he landed a job at a start up that two months later got bought with a full vesting of everyone. He walked away with several million dollars. It took a lot of thinking about that series of events to let it sit in my head without pissing me off. Different people exploit their opportunities differently. I know that if I both knew how, and could have, shorted stock I held but was locked up but worth 'millions' I would have. I would have said "That's enough for me, sell it all, and when it dribbles out via my acquisition contract timed unlock I'll hand over the shares." That would have made me 'evil' in the eyes of the shareholders who bought stock during that time (and later sued the company) but my motivation would have been quite pure (FU money is a good thing). But I don't think of myself as an evil guy, and generally am pretty nice. Bottom line is people with large holdings in a startup will look to 'liquify' a chunk of that to diversify and allow them to activate the wealth 'ratchet' (that is where you solidify your position by converting equity into real goods). If the value of the company continues to grow nobody ever remembers, if the value plunges, they get the short end of it. But its mostly randomness at work.
- rooshdi 14y ago
  Money may be good when allocated fairly and productively, but "FU money" implies a sense of no obligation to society and in many respects is the motivating influence behind much of the ill greed rampant today. F FU money.
klawed 14y ago
I mostly agree with what you write. However, I have to say that, even 2 years ago, based on my somewhat limited knowledge of Zynga, I would have needed to be EXTREMELY desperate to an accept an offer from them. I left MS because I couldn't find a single product they made, aside from XBox, that I had any passion around, whatsoever. I know that I need to be fairly enthusiastic about the products or services that work on every day - the promise of a possible payout would not have been enough to get me to join an organization led by team that seems deceptive, unoriginal and unscrupulous.
jlarocco 14y ago
Meh. It's not like Zynga's employees didn't know what Zynga was doing. And they still got a salary and (probably) benefits, which is all they should really expect anyway. Counting on stock options is a bad idea. And the job market for software developers is really good right now. Yeah, it's a bummer they'll have to find new jobs, but I don't feel particularly bad for them.
thecosas 14y ago
Would it be horribly inappropriate or apt to invoke a Clerks clip here: http://youtu.be/dGOVbXF7Iog?t=1m6s http://youtu.be/dGOVbXF7Iog?t=1m6s
gwern 14y ago
Reminds me of Carlyle's classic quote on bankruptcy: http://lesswrong.com/lw/43w/rationality_quotes_february_2011/3gla http://lesswrong.com/lw/43w/rationality_quotes_february_2011...
noonespecial 14y ago
Its cynical to say, but every single one of those hard working folks knew they were working hard for Zynga.
zerostar07 14y ago
Hard to feel sorry for ppl who chose to waste talent and time like that. They could have gone the other route and compete with zynga if they wanted better

sbochins 14y ago

I guess you could argue that Zynga employees have been dancing with the devil for the past couple of years. Any Zynga employee I ever talked to was very open about how they aren't really making games. They are just cynically generating revenue over flaws in the human condition. I think if you work for a screwy company like Zynga you should be very paranoid about cashing out of the company. If they have such a low opinion of their customers, who is to say they won't have the same sentiment towards their employees.

LnxPrgr3 14y ago
> If they have such a low opinion of their customers, who is to say they won't have the same sentiment towards their employees. Anyone remember this from almost a year ago? http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-57322150-17/zynga-to-employees-give-back-our-stock-or-youll-be-fired/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-57322150-17/zynga-to-emplo... I get the distinct impression Zynga only has a high opinion of money.
- dredmorbius 14y ago
  Oh yes, I remember. How did that ever pan out? Were employees forced to renounce their prior options grants, or did the pressure change management's mind on this? Otherwise, yes, Zynga's present situation's been a long time coming, pity it's the bastards who made off like bandits.

Jach 14y ago

I find it very hard to feel any pity for the employees that knowingly got involved with such a company, and I would be surprised if many of Zynga's best and most hardworking employees didn't jump ship long ago.

enjo 14y ago
What about the ones who were acquired into Zynga?
- jlgreco 14y ago
  I am more concerned about all the non-technical employees they have, who may have not been as well equipped to recognize Zynga for what it is. Most of the artists probably should have been able to recognize it (with all that tracing going on...), but employees more removed than that could have been relatively blindsided.
  - rohern 14y ago
    If they have access to the internet, they have had plenty of opportunities to read about it. The shameful behavior of Zynga is public knowledge and has been for years. Also > (with all that tracing going on...) :D
    - salemh 14y ago
      Yet, the market for non-technical employee's is not nearly as supply-centric as demand.
w1ntermute 14y ago
Any developer with half a brain should know that the game industry should be avoided like the plague. Long working hours, abusive management, racism (the Kixeye debacle), the issues just go on and on. Take patio11's advice and go into B2B, you'll make money hand over fist with much more manageable working hours.

jmsduran 14y ago

As a software developer who lives in Austin, I find it disconcerting whenever I hear about developer layoffs, especially in our city. I hope this is just an isolated incident of bad company strategy than an overall industry trend.

MartinCron 14y ago
I feel the same way whenever I see large developer layoffs in my city. I also feel unnerved when I see unsustainable companies go on unsustainable hiring binges. It's like the first scene in a horror movie. Are you crazy? Don't go in there! He'll kill you!
chris123 14y ago
On the bright side, there may be some good people to be found in the ash pile.
- malandrew 14y ago
  Layoffs are horrible when they happen, but 6 months later after the dust has settled and smoke blown over, everyone who was talented and laid off is now better off because the number of weak ties they now have to people in other companies has multiplied dramatically in a short time.
driverdan 14y ago
Luckily for them there is plenty of opportunity in our city. I've yet to find a local tech company that isn't hiring.
oacgnol 14y ago
As someone who was a developer in Austin as of a few months ago, I can imagine other Austin area companies salivating at the fresh infusion of developers into the market. They should be okay (or at least I hope so!).
ericabiz 14y ago
Come to some meetups here in Austin. I can't get through a meetup here without a company announcing that they are hiring. Especially the more niche meetups like the Python Web Meetup: http://www.meetup.com/austinwebpythonusergroup/events/88067882/ http://www.meetup.com/austinwebpythonusergroup/events/880678... My startup is based out of Capital Factory, and if you even just walked in the door during Friday happy hour and announced that you were a developer here in Austin looking for a job, hungry funded startup owners would descend on you like wolves. All that to say: You have nothing to be worried about. And also, come to more events...especially ones held at Capital Factory. :)

cstejerean 14y ago

From what we've seen on HN it didn't sound like Zynga was a place with great work conditions or interesting work. To the extent people went to work there hoping to get rich one day by dumping their shares on a greater sucker, it's hard to really feel bad for them.

bduerst 14y ago

I hate to admit it, but the fact that casinos continue to exist goes to show that the Zynga model will probably hold true. Both employ game dynamics to get participants to part with their money - the only difference being that casinos require you to pay up front, and Zynga doesn't have the same level of overhead. The company will only face a race to the bottom, though, as others enter this space and competition for user time ramps up.

babuskov 14y ago
Important distinction is that in casinos players can make money. Well, as we know, only a small percentage does and overall it is the house that always wins, but humans are very bad at judging laws of probability. This "flaw" is still not in Zynga's games, and since FB prevents gambling with real rewards it will continue to be so. Your last sentence will probably hold true, unless they start producing something innovative and useful for a change..
- bduerst 14y ago
  I would argue that money rewards can be equal to in-game rewards, since Zynga players are obviously willing to part money for the latter, but that boils down to a matter of opinion. It will be interesting to see if management bails from Zynga over the coming quarters. Personally, I would watch and see if management unloads on any stock or options.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    Without money awards I suspect you will see far fewer instances of Gambler's Ruin, or other more subtle profit-generating phenomenon. As far as I can tell, there can be no sense of "recouping losses".
    - bduerst 14y ago
      But you do get the benefit of using arbitrary "point" conversions, i.e. $10 buys 8 coins, $20 buys 18 coins, etc. It makes it harder for the user to estimate the real value when purchasing, and thus easier to overspend.

ghshephard 14y ago

Well, if it makes you feel better, I had a conversation with a Zynga employee last night, who is pretty happy about leaving the company. In particular, he wants to go do something he believes in, and to quote him, "and i don't hugely believe in selling virtual cows" So - to some degree, the crash and possible termination of Zynga's business model, enables these people to escape the company. If the stock had value, then they would be trapped in that really horrible (for some of them) career. When the stock has no value - they are all now free(er) to go - no handcuffs.

danilocampos 14y ago
This is a really important perspective I hadn't considered. Money can be a very corrosive incentive. If, say, you have student loans or a family to support, you might decide to trade your personal sanity for a payoff. Glad the decision to leave is easier, at least.
freshhawk 14y ago
That is a good point, the job market for developers is great right now and they've just freed up some talent to hopefully work on something useful.
samstave 14y ago
When i worked for a company that was acquired by Lockheed Martin, immediately upon the announcement of acquisition, several employees resigned saying they could not knowing work for a war monger. Their conviction was greater than the potential wealth and very commendable. Your comment insinuates that these employees had no morals and were freed by the failure. This is actually a fucked up position. There are many factors that play into this, the most significant of which is the employees living paycheck to paycheck where they cannot actually leave on a high ground position due to their needing the money... and your point is that "well, at least the company failed freeing them of any moral risk of staying with the company should it have succeeded and trapped them with lucrative options!" To this I say, fully and openly: Fuck every single thing about Zynga and the attitudes and policies it may beget. FUCK ZYNGA and I have zero sympathy for any of its employees in any regard. I have been openly decrying this company for years - and I still will - I can't stand such bullshit in any industry and Silicon Valley should SHUN them and be ashamed of every relation to this company. We are trying to make a better world here, aren't we folks? If not, then fuck you - because if your goal is only self-enrichment then I despise you.

ChuckMcM 14y ago

I get mixed emotions. Yes, companies that do 'bad things' ideally are corrected out of existence by the market. I never like to see anyone lose their jobs, because at some level the rank and file of the company is the blood coursing through its veins. And as Marissa Meyer and others have re-iterated over the last few months, companies don't do thing people do things. So people who are getting things done and fighting the good fight, its always painful to see them go. On the money thing though you really need to come to terms with the fact that there is way more random chance than there is earned riches in the tech business. For every person who got rich being the most brilliant mind on the problem at the right time, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people who got rich just because who ever was sitting in the seat they happened to be sitting in also got rich. The folks who just happened to be at Sun when it founded, or HP, or Google, or FaceBook. Randomness, not skill, plays a huge role there. There was a guy at Sun whom I helped manage out of the organization, he landed a job at a start up that two months later got bought with a full vesting of everyone. He walked away with several million dollars. It took a lot of thinking about that series of events to let it sit in my head without pissing me off. Different people exploit their opportunities differently. I know that if I both knew how, and could have, shorted stock I held but was locked up but worth 'millions' I would have. I would have said "That's enough for me, sell it all, and when it dribbles out via my acquisition contract timed unlock I'll hand over the shares." That would have made me 'evil' in the eyes of the shareholders who bought stock during that time (and later sued the company) but my motivation would have been quite pure (FU money is a good thing). But I don't think of myself as an evil guy, and generally am pretty nice. Bottom line is people with large holdings in a startup will look to 'liquify' a chunk of that to diversify and allow them to activate the wealth 'ratchet' (that is where you solidify your position by converting equity into real goods). If the value of the company continues to grow nobody ever remembers, if the value plunges, they get the short end of it. But its mostly randomness at work.

rooshdi 14y ago
Money may be good when allocated fairly and productively, but "FU money" implies a sense of no obligation to society and in many respects is the motivating influence behind much of the ill greed rampant today. F FU money.

klawed 14y ago

I mostly agree with what you write. However, I have to say that, even 2 years ago, based on my somewhat limited knowledge of Zynga, I would have needed to be EXTREMELY desperate to an accept an offer from them. I left MS because I couldn't find a single product they made, aside from XBox, that I had any passion around, whatsoever. I know that I need to be fairly enthusiastic about the products or services that work on every day - the promise of a possible payout would not have been enough to get me to join an organization led by team that seems deceptive, unoriginal and unscrupulous.

jlarocco 14y ago

Meh. It's not like Zynga's employees didn't know what Zynga was doing. And they still got a salary and (probably) benefits, which is all they should really expect anyway. Counting on stock options is a bad idea. And the job market for software developers is really good right now. Yeah, it's a bummer they'll have to find new jobs, but I don't feel particularly bad for them.

thecosas 14y ago

Would it be horribly inappropriate or apt to invoke a Clerks clip here: http://youtu.be/dGOVbXF7Iog?t=1m6s http://youtu.be/dGOVbXF7Iog?t=1m6s

gwern 14y ago

Reminds me of Carlyle's classic quote on bankruptcy: http://lesswrong.com/lw/43w/rationality_quotes_february_2011/3gla http://lesswrong.com/lw/43w/rationality_quotes_february_2011...

noonespecial 14y ago

Its cynical to say, but every single one of those hard working folks knew they were working hard for Zynga.

zerostar07 14y ago

Hard to feel sorry for ppl who chose to waste talent and time like that. They could have gone the other route and compete with zynga if they wanted better