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> It struck me recently how few of the most successful people I know are mean. There are exceptions, but remarkably few. *mean to Paul Graham. I’ve worked with

> It struck me recently how few of the most successful people I know are mean. There are exceptions, but remarkably few. *mean to Paul Graham. I’ve worked with a lot of mean people in important positions in my career, and they all have a kind, charismatic side when they need to. Those same people are awful to subordinates or people that can’t do something for them. Paul is high value to many people, so they treat him well. People like Graham who aren’t often in positions where they’re taken advantage of or humbled like to pretend they and their peers are magnanimous and kind but often enough they’re just not exposed to the forces that make people ugly. All other things being equal: it’s often lack of agency over work and over their own lives—this shows up in work where people are given lots of responsibility but without the freedom to fulfill it. I often find it concerning how elementary a lot of well off tech peoples’ theory of mind is. People are not acausal personalities, they are functions of their internals and their environments. A person mean at a stressful job might be delightful at a party after.

JoshTriplett 9mo ago
> I often find it concerning how elementary a lot of well off tech peoples’ theory of mind is. This is a great way of putting it. I always get surprised when I discover that others aren't constantly modeling a theory-of-mind of other people as a part of interacting with people. That's leaving aside whether those models are accurate, people have varying degrees of skill at it, but it shocks me when I discover that some people don't do it at all, badly or otherwise.
wat10000 9mo ago
Isn't that why a lot of us went into tech in the first place, because other people's minds are weird and confusing and they keep doing inexplicable stuff like saying things that actually mean something totally different, or not thinking about how something works when trying to use it?
- Herring 9mo ago
  Read more, like biographies and good fiction. Meditate and see into yourself. Understanding minds is a skill like any other, and gets better with practice.
  - wat10000 9mo ago
    There's understanding, and there's understanding. I think I'm pretty decent at understanding people these days, as in predicting how they'll react to things, figuring out what they want, that sort of thing. But I don't understand it on a fundamental level, the way I understand something like math. I have a decent grasp of the game, but I don't understand why the rules of the game are what they are. I get the impression this is how a lot of people feel about math, or computers. They know you can compute a 20% tip by sliding the decimal point over and doubling, but it's just a procedure they follow, they don't understand it. I've read and thought and interacted plenty. This has built up the skill just fine, but the fundamental understanding is something I don't think will ever come.
    - Herring 9mo ago
      And I’m telling you that’s not a rare sentiment. I do a lot of zen, and one famous teacher talks about feeling disconnected from people for a long time. I’m not saying you have to do anything, it’s your life, but just don’t assume it’s something unique or permanent.
      - wat10000 9mo ago
        I don't think it's unique, but it doesn't seem to be the norm. Most people seem to just accept how people behave without thinking about it too much. When they respond to "how are you?" used as a greeting, they just do it, they're not calculating the right answer. As far as permanence goes, I'm probably more than halfway through my lifespan at this point and there's no sign of any improvement there. Like I said, as a skill I do just fine. But that deeper understanding isn't there and I doubt it will be.
- SirensOfTitan 9mo ago
  Yeah, and I think that avoidance is the cardinal sin of the modern world. You can’t avoid the dissonance between how a person acts and what they say or want to be. This is especially true within yourself: you can’t ignore what James Hillman might call the “multitudes of the soul” because the pot eventually boils over, and you wonder why you cannot measure up to this ideal version of yourself. When I’ve been mean at work, and I’ve had many moments, I’m often unsure where it comes from: why did I react that way? It’s not what I wanted. And I’ve been fortunate to be humbled so much in my life and career, now perhaps more than ever, that I’m forced to juggle with the parts of myself that I’ve left in the shadows to my own detriment. I think this is the central paradox of a lot of folks like Graham: when you have capital, even your losses can be manufactured to be wins, and so you become estranged from dissolution and decay and humbling necessary to be born again into someone with fresh perspective. I think Jung said something like: it is better to be yourself and accept the consequences of being you versus forcing yourself into a mold of what you or others think you ought to be. And often this means engaging deeply with what you’re avoiding and coming to terms with why.

JoshTriplett 9mo ago

> I often find it concerning how elementary a lot of well off tech peoples’ theory of mind is. This is a great way of putting it. I always get surprised when I discover that others aren't constantly modeling a theory-of-mind of other people as a part of interacting with people. That's leaving aside whether those models are accurate, people have varying degrees of skill at it, but it shocks me when I discover that some people don't do it at all, badly or otherwise.

wat10000 9mo ago

Isn't that why a lot of us went into tech in the first place, because other people's minds are weird and confusing and they keep doing inexplicable stuff like saying things that actually mean something totally different, or not thinking about how something works when trying to use it?

Herring 9mo ago
Read more, like biographies and good fiction. Meditate and see into yourself. Understanding minds is a skill like any other, and gets better with practice.
- wat10000 9mo ago
  There's understanding, and there's understanding. I think I'm pretty decent at understanding people these days, as in predicting how they'll react to things, figuring out what they want, that sort of thing. But I don't understand it on a fundamental level, the way I understand something like math. I have a decent grasp of the game, but I don't understand why the rules of the game are what they are. I get the impression this is how a lot of people feel about math, or computers. They know you can compute a 20% tip by sliding the decimal point over and doubling, but it's just a procedure they follow, they don't understand it. I've read and thought and interacted plenty. This has built up the skill just fine, but the fundamental understanding is something I don't think will ever come.
  - Herring 9mo ago
    And I’m telling you that’s not a rare sentiment. I do a lot of zen, and one famous teacher talks about feeling disconnected from people for a long time. I’m not saying you have to do anything, it’s your life, but just don’t assume it’s something unique or permanent.
    - wat10000 9mo ago
      I don't think it's unique, but it doesn't seem to be the norm. Most people seem to just accept how people behave without thinking about it too much. When they respond to "how are you?" used as a greeting, they just do it, they're not calculating the right answer. As far as permanence goes, I'm probably more than halfway through my lifespan at this point and there's no sign of any improvement there. Like I said, as a skill I do just fine. But that deeper understanding isn't there and I doubt it will be.
SirensOfTitan 9mo ago
Yeah, and I think that avoidance is the cardinal sin of the modern world. You can’t avoid the dissonance between how a person acts and what they say or want to be. This is especially true within yourself: you can’t ignore what James Hillman might call the “multitudes of the soul” because the pot eventually boils over, and you wonder why you cannot measure up to this ideal version of yourself. When I’ve been mean at work, and I’ve had many moments, I’m often unsure where it comes from: why did I react that way? It’s not what I wanted. And I’ve been fortunate to be humbled so much in my life and career, now perhaps more than ever, that I’m forced to juggle with the parts of myself that I’ve left in the shadows to my own detriment. I think this is the central paradox of a lot of folks like Graham: when you have capital, even your losses can be manufactured to be wins, and so you become estranged from dissolution and decay and humbling necessary to be born again into someone with fresh perspective. I think Jung said something like: it is better to be yourself and accept the consequences of being you versus forcing yourself into a mold of what you or others think you ought to be. And often this means engaging deeply with what you’re avoiding and coming to terms with why.