4 ms·

The very concept of work/life balance is an artifact of unionization. You hate everything about unions? Fascinating. How many have you worked for? Edit: upon r

The very concept of work/life balance is an artifact of unionization. You hate everything about unions? Fascinating. How many have you worked for? Edit: upon reflection my original comment left a lot on the floor so I'm circling back to pick some of it up. Here's what a "typical" union experience looks like: The union hall staffs individuals that find work for you. The bulk of back-office paperwork and other hassles (including wage negotiation) are handled on your behalf by the hall. When you first hire on it's typically as a pre-apprentice (no prior experience) or apprentice (some applicable experience to the trade). OJT and training/certification materials are provided for you. Your coworkers are trained, experienced craftsmen. All applicable safety guidelines are rigidly enforced. From day 1 you are presented with the kind of benefits package that is no longer available to your average worker. In addition to credible health insurance this includes pension, annuity, on the job training and certification, and death benefits. In addition to your wage you are guaranteed additional compensation for overtime and hazardous work. By way of comparison, working in the trades for a non-union shop is at best a crapshoot. There's no guarantee SS and other taxes are being taken out correctly or at all. I've known several subcontractors who've gotten royally screwed by the IRS come tax time when they found out that they (unexpectedly) owed thousands in taxes. Safety guidelines are routinely ignored, it's nothing to get shorted on your paycheck (or go weeks without pay), benefits are typically non-existent, no guarantees of overtime, and you're working sink or swim with whoever the boss could scrape together to form a crew, typically for less money than you'd make in a union shop and that's after dues. General contractors also tend to maintain a good-ol-boy network, so you go rocking the boat about substandard pay or unsafe working conditions and it's a very real possibility that you could find yourself blackballed in your area. TL;DR: Union: guaranteed pay, safe working conditions, training provided for career advancement, benefits, retirement plan. Non-union: good luck, buddy. Full disclosure: I worked in the trades (both union and non-union) for several years before changing career tracks to become a programmer. I do not regret my time with the Union and would go back in a heartbeat if for some reason coding was no longer a viable career option.

TheCapn 14y ago
Based on anecdotal experiences mine were nearly the opposite. Now I was never a trades worker but I did work for a unionized company. Up to a few months ago before leaving for private sector. Union: - Everyone is complacent with work, majority of time is spent faking work or finding ways out of work (pay raises are not tied to performance) - Net pay below average for industry (Below 50th percentile) - Under-skilled workers protected by the union from being let go. - Successes & Failures of the company are shared amongst the entire employee base. As a result there is no motivating drive to work harder to push better products out faster because there is no direct feedback resulting from it - Training is provided on a seniority basis Non-Union: - Identical benefits (or at the very least negotiable) but higher base wage - Skilled workers who are hired based off of recommendation of trusted employees exclusively - Strong motivating factor to produce more deliverable work as it is a direct correlation to the business's success and therefore yours (profit sharing) - Pay raise is tied to performance - Training provided on an as needed basis -> The new guy might get training before the 10 year vet because he/she is the one going to be working with that particular skill set in the short time frame ---- Shared amongst those is equal work/life balance and safety. Labour laws have protected the workforce from shady practices you experienced (arguably an isolated incident). I'm thankful for what unions of the last few centuries have brought for us, but speaking in the majority of cases I've heard of, (anecdotal: take it as you will) they are now power hungry bodies that are corroding industry from the inside out.
- knieveltech 14y ago
  I can't speak to your experiences other than to say it's disgusting mismanagement if true. I've heard similar stories involving non-trades union companies. I've also heard amazing success stories involving companies bought out of bankruptcy by their employees and turned into financial success stories. Guess it depends on the people involved. One thing I can address is this: " Labour laws have protected the workforce from shady practices you experienced (arguably an isolated incident)" In manufacturing and trades (especially trades) this isn't even slightly accurate. Laws don't protect people, they provide a theoretical framework for compensation or punitive action after the fact. In practice a private citizen has almost no chance against a corporate lawyer in court, so it's almost impossible to prove workplace safety violations. On the rare ocassion that something does stick in court companies caught violating worker safety laws typically get a slap on the wrist, meanwhile whistleblowers better have a spare career up their sleeves or line up a settlement big enough to retire on because they won't be working for any outfits in their industry once they pull the trigger on a court case. Good luck proving the last company you interviewed you didn't hire you because you blew the whistle on your last employer. :/
  - TheCapn 14y ago
    You're probably right on trades but what you said about management is entirely right. You can have good workplaces and bad ones regardless of union status.
PakG1 14y ago
Your definition of union is completely different from this conversation's definition of union. I wasn't even aware of your definition of union until I interviewed at this company that made software for unions as you describe them. Those unions are indeed exactly as you describe, and that company's customers used the company's software for tracking work of their union members, which were at what level of competency, even dispatching jobs, and so on. They were indeed tradesmen and craftsmen. The unions discussed in this conversation are collective bargaining units that negotiate employment agreements with a single employer, and such negotiations are often huge, nasty, and difficult. I went through such a dispute with a telecom, and everyone not unionized had to work as a scab (doing the job of those who were unionized and not working). The union people would picket outside our building and insult us when we went for lunch, and we pulled 80 hour days to do their work (with fortunately amazing OT pay, and I was part of a team in charge of trying to automate everything in sight). But it was a nasty dispute. The current NHL lockout that's happening is another similar union dispute, though you obviously don't see NHL players picketing NHL headquarters. :)

TheCapn 14y ago

Based on anecdotal experiences mine were nearly the opposite. Now I was never a trades worker but I did work for a unionized company. Up to a few months ago before leaving for private sector. Union: - Everyone is complacent with work, majority of time is spent faking work or finding ways out of work (pay raises are not tied to performance) - Net pay below average for industry (Below 50th percentile) - Under-skilled workers protected by the union from being let go. - Successes & Failures of the company are shared amongst the entire employee base. As a result there is no motivating drive to work harder to push better products out faster because there is no direct feedback resulting from it - Training is provided on a seniority basis Non-Union: - Identical benefits (or at the very least negotiable) but higher base wage - Skilled workers who are hired based off of recommendation of trusted employees exclusively - Strong motivating factor to produce more deliverable work as it is a direct correlation to the business's success and therefore yours (profit sharing) - Pay raise is tied to performance - Training provided on an as needed basis -> The new guy might get training before the 10 year vet because he/she is the one going to be working with that particular skill set in the short time frame ---- Shared amongst those is equal work/life balance and safety. Labour laws have protected the workforce from shady practices you experienced (arguably an isolated incident). I'm thankful for what unions of the last few centuries have brought for us, but speaking in the majority of cases I've heard of, (anecdotal: take it as you will) they are now power hungry bodies that are corroding industry from the inside out.

knieveltech 14y ago
I can't speak to your experiences other than to say it's disgusting mismanagement if true. I've heard similar stories involving non-trades union companies. I've also heard amazing success stories involving companies bought out of bankruptcy by their employees and turned into financial success stories. Guess it depends on the people involved. One thing I can address is this: " Labour laws have protected the workforce from shady practices you experienced (arguably an isolated incident)" In manufacturing and trades (especially trades) this isn't even slightly accurate. Laws don't protect people, they provide a theoretical framework for compensation or punitive action after the fact. In practice a private citizen has almost no chance against a corporate lawyer in court, so it's almost impossible to prove workplace safety violations. On the rare ocassion that something does stick in court companies caught violating worker safety laws typically get a slap on the wrist, meanwhile whistleblowers better have a spare career up their sleeves or line up a settlement big enough to retire on because they won't be working for any outfits in their industry once they pull the trigger on a court case. Good luck proving the last company you interviewed you didn't hire you because you blew the whistle on your last employer. :/
- TheCapn 14y ago
  You're probably right on trades but what you said about management is entirely right. You can have good workplaces and bad ones regardless of union status.

PakG1 14y ago

Your definition of union is completely different from this conversation's definition of union. I wasn't even aware of your definition of union until I interviewed at this company that made software for unions as you describe them. Those unions are indeed exactly as you describe, and that company's customers used the company's software for tracking work of their union members, which were at what level of competency, even dispatching jobs, and so on. They were indeed tradesmen and craftsmen. The unions discussed in this conversation are collective bargaining units that negotiate employment agreements with a single employer, and such negotiations are often huge, nasty, and difficult. I went through such a dispute with a telecom, and everyone not unionized had to work as a scab (doing the job of those who were unionized and not working). The union people would picket outside our building and insult us when we went for lunch, and we pulled 80 hour days to do their work (with fortunately amazing OT pay, and I was part of a team in charge of trying to automate everything in sight). But it was a nasty dispute. The current NHL lockout that's happening is another similar union dispute, though you obviously don't see NHL players picketing NHL headquarters. :)