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Why This Computer Scientist Says All Cryptocurrency Should "Die in a Fire" (2022)

77 points by bediger4000 9mo ago

Philadelphia 9mo ago
(2022)
- everybodyknows 9mo ago
  Also from 2022, Jorge Stolfi: https://english.elpais.com/science-tech/2022-07-07/jorge-stolfi-technologically-bitcoin-and-blockchain-technology-is-garbage.html https://english.elpais.com/science-tech/2022-07-07/jorge-sto...
gigatexal 9mo ago
… they’re not wrong
izzydata 9mo ago
Crypto should have stayed a silly tech demo that nerds used to trade with eachother for pizza.
- aagha 9mo ago
  The how would Epstein-esque pedo's and bad state actors transact?
BadBadJellyBean 9mo ago
Bitcoin and all other cryptocurrencies don't have a value assigned like normal currency. That means you almost never pay in bitcoin but in the bitcoin trading value of some currency. Instead of $5 you pay the current trading value of $5 in bitcoin. That is why it doesn't work as a currency and people are complaining about how they struggle with crypto volatility. No one really thinks about how many bitcoins they have just how much that is worth in "real" money.
- slicktux 9mo ago
  You can say the same thing about gold.
  - BadBadJellyBean 9mo ago
    At least gold is a physical good that has some use. I don't like gold speculations but bitcoins are literally just bits in a distributed database. But that is not even the problem. Most money is digital. The problem is the acceptance. It's primary use seems to be just trading it back and forth without trading it for goods.
    - slicktux 9mo ago
      They are bits that are cryptographically true and unique. It may not be tangible but now we are getting into philosophy of mathematics and whether math is real or not? I believe in math therefore I believe in cryptography.
      - BadBadJellyBean 9mo ago
        They are unique but they will cease to exist if everyone stops mining and doesn't keep a backup. They are just charges on a storage medium. You cannot use them for anything but to either keep in a wallet or move around. The transactions might be immutable but they are not persistent if not constantly tended to. Gold will stay gold for a long time without intervention. Most normal currencies are the same as bitcoin/crypto in that they are mostly digital but at least they have some mostly agreed upon value within their system. They don't need to be converted to another currency to find out which goods I can exchange for them.
        bad_haircut72 9mo ago
        Im not a crypto person I own zero cryptocurrency - yes, it will only ever be worth what someone thinks its worth. If it all gets turned off it goes to zero, but if the network is up and someone is willing to act as an exchange, it will have value - even if it drops back to 10c. If it has some value, it can be used to move that value around. If it can be used to move that value around, then people will think it has value. Thus I dont think bitcoin is going away, though its value relative to USD could go anywhere
badlucksbane 9mo ago
[dead]
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
profsummergig 9mo ago
It will. Oh it will.
tromp 9mo ago
> If you don’t want people to rewrite history, you have to be wasting tons and tons of resources 24/7, 365. And that’s why Bitcoin burns as much power as a significant country. No, Bitcoin burns that much power because it has become the top speculative asset. But it only became that after maybe 8 years. Before that it actually functioned more like a currency (amongst other things, for buying illicit goods online). And what makes Bitcoin ideal for speculation is its capped emission where every 4 years the amount emitted is halved, encouraging FOMO. I agree most cryptocurrency should die in a fire, including all the ones made to enrich their creators, which is the vast majority of them. The few that do not allow their creators any financial gain, and those that strongly discourage speculation by having the same amount emitted every year, do not need to die.
johanvts 9mo ago
I like to point people to this page: https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption/ https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption/ The breakdown in cost pr. Transaction really drives home what a ludicrous system it is. Bitcoin is a fantastic example of a great invention put to horrible use.
- longitudinal93 9mo ago
  Does that include transactions over the Lightning Network? If it doesn't then it's entirely meaningless.
  - johanvts 9mo ago
    The lightning network can handle transactions sure. Because it is not a distributed POW system. You can also just sell some BTC, transact via VISA or paypal etc., and buy BTC when you are done. Im not saying you can’t use BTC as a store of value. Just that transaction costs are way to high to use for payments/transactions i.e. as a currency.
- Ferret7446 9mo ago
  It's the cost of impartiality. Just like the cost we pay for modern judicial systems which are very inefficient if you ignore the value of justice
smitty1e 9mo ago
So does this mean that AI will absorb all the cryptocurrency compute when "we" collectively realize that crypto was so much rectal sunshine?
helf 9mo ago
[dead]
littlecranky67 9mo ago
Note that most of the 'Bitcoin anti-sustainability FUD' comes from a 2019 study published by cambridge university. The studies very heavily critisized, and in 2025 cambridge themselves revised their own models and admitted overestimation and model correction. The article is from 2022 and probably not up to date. I would also highlight that most knowledge and mental models around Bitcoin and the ecosystem seem to be stuck in 2021 - but after the AI hype took over, there have been slow improvements and developments that go mostly unnoticed, also here on HN. I.e. the lightning network is evolving too, making anonyous (to a certain extend), sub-second, off-chain transactions possible at way better efficiency regarding energy. With other developments like Bitcoin Taproot (Schnorr signatures), async and trampoline payments on the horizon fir lightning, we can expect even better anonymity and ease of use for lightning network within the next 1-2 years. Most comments, reasoning, papers etc. older than 3-4 years should be taken with a grain of salt, as it is a rapidly evolving and changing field. Probably the same applies to AI progress (especially the debatable energy consumption around AI).
- belviewreview 9mo ago
  A couple of questions. (1) can you point to some large important positive uses of Bitcoin at present, or are you just saying that at some point in the future we will see them? (2) are you saying all the bad things like Ponzi scams, hacking, drug money monitoring, buying csam and ransomware, have stopped, or that at some point in the future they will?
  - littlecranky67 9mo ago
    > (1) can you point to some large important positive uses of Bitcoin at present No, not at present - but there will be in the future. Bitcoin is faily new, hard to understand for laymen, and government regulation and the existing financial industry is actively fighting it (with some extend changing in the US right now). The properties bitcoin has allow for lots of benefits and use cases that are superior to our existing financial systems, but they depent on adoption. I am bullish on the bitcoin, the same way I was bullish on the internet in 1994. The internet is great, but not so great if only a couple of thousand people in the world use it. That is the same adoption problem, not an issue with the underlying technology. > (2) are you saying all the bad things All the bad things existed before bitcoin, and will exist for eternity. The internet in the early 90s and 00s was also a place full of scams, ponzi scheme emails, phishing, fraud etc. Most crime money today is fiat cash. Some people (especially in the EU) claim a total surveillance state and the removal of cash paired with total money control is needed for a safe and secure society. I am in team liberal democracy, where the freedom of cash and lack of government total control is a benefit to society, ensures perpetual democracy and freedom to the individual. The fact that bitcoin and crypto is used by criminals just as cash is, shouldn't be a reason to not have it. Just as removing cash to prevent illegal activity should not be goal in a free society.
samyar 9mo ago
I live in Kurdistan (Iran) because of sanctions if it was not for crypto buying something online would have been one of the most difficult things i could do. i should have used middleman that give no guarantee to their services and suck. so I'm glad for crypto that i can receive my revenue and buy things. and instantly send money. note: i read the comments and all of them argue against it because of its energy consumption. I don't find any of them convincing crypto has been good to me and i want it to be good for others too. The only thing that i care about are pedos and drug dealers which makes very upset because it's very true, they use it and i wish there was a way to track them.
- theragra 9mo ago
  Funny how you believe that your illegal usage is good, but drug dealing usage is bad. If we were to believe the government, you should not be able to avoid sanctions. So, maybe you should not blindly trust government when it says Bitcoin is ah so bad because it it used by darknet markets.
  - samyar 9mo ago
    I actually explicitly said that it's good, also my "illegal" use is buying API credits, games, receiving money for my legal work, and saving my money on a stable coin because the Iranian currency is nowhere near stable id have lost half of my money if I did not save it crypto

77 points by bediger4000 9mo ago

Philadelphia 9mo ago

(2022)

everybodyknows 9mo ago
Also from 2022, Jorge Stolfi: https://english.elpais.com/science-tech/2022-07-07/jorge-stolfi-technologically-bitcoin-and-blockchain-technology-is-garbage.html https://english.elpais.com/science-tech/2022-07-07/jorge-sto...

gigatexal 9mo ago

… they’re not wrong

izzydata 9mo ago

Crypto should have stayed a silly tech demo that nerds used to trade with eachother for pizza.

aagha 9mo ago
The how would Epstein-esque pedo's and bad state actors transact?

BadBadJellyBean 9mo ago

Bitcoin and all other cryptocurrencies don't have a value assigned like normal currency. That means you almost never pay in bitcoin but in the bitcoin trading value of some currency. Instead of $5 you pay the current trading value of $5 in bitcoin. That is why it doesn't work as a currency and people are complaining about how they struggle with crypto volatility. No one really thinks about how many bitcoins they have just how much that is worth in "real" money.

slicktux 9mo ago
You can say the same thing about gold.
- BadBadJellyBean 9mo ago
  At least gold is a physical good that has some use. I don't like gold speculations but bitcoins are literally just bits in a distributed database. But that is not even the problem. Most money is digital. The problem is the acceptance. It's primary use seems to be just trading it back and forth without trading it for goods.
  - slicktux 9mo ago
    They are bits that are cryptographically true and unique. It may not be tangible but now we are getting into philosophy of mathematics and whether math is real or not? I believe in math therefore I believe in cryptography.
    - BadBadJellyBean 9mo ago
      They are unique but they will cease to exist if everyone stops mining and doesn't keep a backup. They are just charges on a storage medium. You cannot use them for anything but to either keep in a wallet or move around. The transactions might be immutable but they are not persistent if not constantly tended to. Gold will stay gold for a long time without intervention. Most normal currencies are the same as bitcoin/crypto in that they are mostly digital but at least they have some mostly agreed upon value within their system. They don't need to be converted to another currency to find out which goods I can exchange for them.
      - bad_haircut72 9mo ago
        Im not a crypto person I own zero cryptocurrency - yes, it will only ever be worth what someone thinks its worth. If it all gets turned off it goes to zero, but if the network is up and someone is willing to act as an exchange, it will have value - even if it drops back to 10c. If it has some value, it can be used to move that value around. If it can be used to move that value around, then people will think it has value. Thus I dont think bitcoin is going away, though its value relative to USD could go anywhere

badlucksbane 9mo ago

[dead]

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]

profsummergig 9mo ago

It will. Oh it will.

tromp 9mo ago

> If you don’t want people to rewrite history, you have to be wasting tons and tons of resources 24/7, 365. And that’s why Bitcoin burns as much power as a significant country. No, Bitcoin burns that much power because it has become the top speculative asset. But it only became that after maybe 8 years. Before that it actually functioned more like a currency (amongst other things, for buying illicit goods online). And what makes Bitcoin ideal for speculation is its capped emission where every 4 years the amount emitted is halved, encouraging FOMO. I agree most cryptocurrency should die in a fire, including all the ones made to enrich their creators, which is the vast majority of them. The few that do not allow their creators any financial gain, and those that strongly discourage speculation by having the same amount emitted every year, do not need to die.

johanvts 9mo ago

I like to point people to this page: https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption/ https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption/ The breakdown in cost pr. Transaction really drives home what a ludicrous system it is. Bitcoin is a fantastic example of a great invention put to horrible use.

longitudinal93 9mo ago
Does that include transactions over the Lightning Network? If it doesn't then it's entirely meaningless.
- johanvts 9mo ago
  The lightning network can handle transactions sure. Because it is not a distributed POW system. You can also just sell some BTC, transact via VISA or paypal etc., and buy BTC when you are done. Im not saying you can’t use BTC as a store of value. Just that transaction costs are way to high to use for payments/transactions i.e. as a currency.
Ferret7446 9mo ago
It's the cost of impartiality. Just like the cost we pay for modern judicial systems which are very inefficient if you ignore the value of justice

smitty1e 9mo ago

So does this mean that AI will absorb all the cryptocurrency compute when "we" collectively realize that crypto was so much rectal sunshine?

helf 9mo ago

[dead]

littlecranky67 9mo ago

Note that most of the 'Bitcoin anti-sustainability FUD' comes from a 2019 study published by cambridge university. The studies very heavily critisized, and in 2025 cambridge themselves revised their own models and admitted overestimation and model correction. The article is from 2022 and probably not up to date. I would also highlight that most knowledge and mental models around Bitcoin and the ecosystem seem to be stuck in 2021 - but after the AI hype took over, there have been slow improvements and developments that go mostly unnoticed, also here on HN. I.e. the lightning network is evolving too, making anonyous (to a certain extend), sub-second, off-chain transactions possible at way better efficiency regarding energy. With other developments like Bitcoin Taproot (Schnorr signatures), async and trampoline payments on the horizon fir lightning, we can expect even better anonymity and ease of use for lightning network within the next 1-2 years. Most comments, reasoning, papers etc. older than 3-4 years should be taken with a grain of salt, as it is a rapidly evolving and changing field. Probably the same applies to AI progress (especially the debatable energy consumption around AI).

belviewreview 9mo ago
A couple of questions. (1) can you point to some large important positive uses of Bitcoin at present, or are you just saying that at some point in the future we will see them? (2) are you saying all the bad things like Ponzi scams, hacking, drug money monitoring, buying csam and ransomware, have stopped, or that at some point in the future they will?
- littlecranky67 9mo ago
  > (1) can you point to some large important positive uses of Bitcoin at present No, not at present - but there will be in the future. Bitcoin is faily new, hard to understand for laymen, and government regulation and the existing financial industry is actively fighting it (with some extend changing in the US right now). The properties bitcoin has allow for lots of benefits and use cases that are superior to our existing financial systems, but they depent on adoption. I am bullish on the bitcoin, the same way I was bullish on the internet in 1994. The internet is great, but not so great if only a couple of thousand people in the world use it. That is the same adoption problem, not an issue with the underlying technology. > (2) are you saying all the bad things All the bad things existed before bitcoin, and will exist for eternity. The internet in the early 90s and 00s was also a place full of scams, ponzi scheme emails, phishing, fraud etc. Most crime money today is fiat cash. Some people (especially in the EU) claim a total surveillance state and the removal of cash paired with total money control is needed for a safe and secure society. I am in team liberal democracy, where the freedom of cash and lack of government total control is a benefit to society, ensures perpetual democracy and freedom to the individual. The fact that bitcoin and crypto is used by criminals just as cash is, shouldn't be a reason to not have it. Just as removing cash to prevent illegal activity should not be goal in a free society.

samyar 9mo ago

I live in Kurdistan (Iran) because of sanctions if it was not for crypto buying something online would have been one of the most difficult things i could do. i should have used middleman that give no guarantee to their services and suck. so I'm glad for crypto that i can receive my revenue and buy things. and instantly send money. note: i read the comments and all of them argue against it because of its energy consumption. I don't find any of them convincing crypto has been good to me and i want it to be good for others too. The only thing that i care about are pedos and drug dealers which makes very upset because it's very true, they use it and i wish there was a way to track them.

theragra 9mo ago
Funny how you believe that your illegal usage is good, but drug dealing usage is bad. If we were to believe the government, you should not be able to avoid sanctions. So, maybe you should not blindly trust government when it says Bitcoin is ah so bad because it it used by darknet markets.
- samyar 9mo ago
  I actually explicitly said that it's good, also my "illegal" use is buying API credits, games, receiving money for my legal work, and saving my money on a stable coin because the Iranian currency is nowhere near stable id have lost half of my money if I did not save it crypto