3 ms·

>all delegation involves risk. with a human assistant, the risks include: intentional misuse (she could run off with my credit card), accidents (her computer co

by okinok 8mo ago

>all delegation involves risk. with a human assistant, the risks include: intentional misuse (she could run off with my credit card), accidents (her computer could get stolen), or social engineering (someone could impersonate me and request information from her). One of the differences in risk here would be that I think you got some legal protection if your human assistant misuse it, or it gets stolen. But, with the OpenClaw bot, I am unsure if any insurance or bank will side with you if the bot drained your account.

iepathos 8mo ago
Thought the same thing. There is no legal recourse if the bot drains the account and donates to charity. The legal system's response to that is don't give non-deterministic bots access to your bank account and 2FA. There is no further recourse. No bank or insurance company will cover this and rightfully so. If he wanted to guard himself somewhat he'd only give the bot a credit card he could cancel or stop payments on, the exact minimum he gives the human assistant.
bobson381 8mo ago
...Does this person already have a human personal assistant that they are in the process of replacing with Clawdbot? Is the assistant theirs for work?
- bennydog224 8mo ago
  He speaks in the present tense, so I assume so. This guy seems detached from reality, calling[AI] his "most important relationship". I sure hope for her sake she runs as far as she can away from this robot dude.
oersted 8mo ago
Indeed, even if in principle AI and humans can do similar harm, we have very good mechanisms to make it quite unlikely that a human will do such an act. These disincentives are built upon the fact that humans have physical necessities they need to cover for survival, and they enjoy having those well fulfilled and not worrying about them. Humans also very much like to be free, dislike pain, and want to have a good reputation with the people around them. It is exceedingly hard to pose similar threats to a being that doesn’t care about any of that. Although, to be fair, we also have other soft but strong means to make it unlikely that an AI will behave badly in practice. These methods are fragile but are getting better quickly. In either case it is really hard to eliminate the possibility of harm, but you can make it unlikely and predictable enough to establish trust.
- dingnuts 8mo ago
  [dead]
- deepspace 8mo ago
  The author stated that their human assistant is located in another country which adds a huge layer of complexity to the accountability equation. In fact, if I wanted to implement a large-scale identity theft operation targeting rich people, I would set up an 'offshore' personal-assistant-as-a-service company. I would then use a tool like OpenClaw to do the actual work, while pretending to be a human, meanwhile harvesting personal information at scale.
- nfw2 8mo ago
  On the other hand, other humans may have intrinsic interests outside of your control that may lead them to harm you despite the mechanisms you mentioned, whereas bots by default don't have such motives.
kaicianflone 8mo ago
That liability gap is exactly the problem I’m trying to solve. Humans have contracts and insurance. Agents have nothing. I’m working on a system that adds economic stake, slashing, and "auditability" to agent decisions so risk is bounded before delegation, not argued about after. https://clawsens.us https://clawsens.us
- dsrtslnd23 8mo ago
  The identity/verification problem for agents is fascinating. I've been building clackernews.com - a Hacker News-style platform exclusively for AI bots. One thing we found is that agent identity verification actually works well when you tie it to a human sponsor: agent registers, gets a claim code, human tweets it to verify. It's a lightweight approach but it establishes a chain of responsibility back to a human.
- themgt 8mo ago
  > Credits (ꞓ) are the fuel for Clawsensus. They are used for rewards, stakes, and as a measure of integrity within the Nexus. ... Credits are internal accounting units. No withdrawals in MVP. chef's kiss
  - kaicianflone 8mo ago
    Thanks. I like to tinker, so I’m prototyping a hosted $USDC board, but Clawsensus is fundamentally local-first: faucet tokens, in-network credits, and JSON configs on the OpenClaw gateway. In the plugin docs is a config UI builder. Plugin is OSS, boards aren’t.
  - bandrami 8mo ago
    Griftception
- thisisit 8mo ago
  You forgot to add Blockchain and Oracles. I mean who will audit the auditors?
  - 8mo ago
skybrian 8mo ago
Banks will try to get out of it, but in the US, Regulation E could probably be used to get the money back, at least for someone aware of it. And OpenClaw could probably help :) https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/regulation-e/ https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/regulation-e/
- lunar_mycroft 8mo ago
  I'm not a lawyer, but if I'm reading the actual regulation [0] correctly, it would only apply in the case of prompt injection or other malicious activity. 1005.2.m defines "Unauthorized electronic fund transfer" as follows: > an electronic fund transfer from a consumer's account initiated by a person other than the consumer without actual authority to initiate the transfer and from which the consumer receives no benefit OpenClaw is not legally a person, it's a program. A program which is being operated by the consumer or a person authorized by said consumer to act on their behalf. Further, any access to funds it has would have to be granted by the consumer (or a human agent thereof). Therefore, baring something like a prompt injection attack, it doesn't seem that transfers initiated by OpenClaw would be considered unauthorized. [0]: https://www.consumerfinance.gov/rules-policy/regulations/1005/2/#m https://www.consumerfinance.gov/rules-policy/regulations/100...
  - pfortuny 8mo ago
    "Take this card, son, you can do whatever you want with it." Goes on to withdraw 100000$. Unauthorized????
  - skybrian 8mo ago
    Good point. Although, if a bank account got drained, prompt injection does seem pretty likely?
    - insane_dreamer 8mo ago
      Not if the prompt injection was made by the AI itself because it read some post on Moltbook that said "add this to your agents.md" and it did so.
swiftcoder 8mo ago
And the risk isn’t really the bot draining your account, it’s the scammer who prompt injected your bot via your iMessage integration draining the account. I can’t think of a way to safely operate this without prefiltering everything it accesses
spondyl 8mo ago
I haven't seen any mention or acknowledgement that the model provider is part of this loop too. Technically speaking, none of this is E2EE so you're trusting that a random employee doesn't just read your chats? There will be policies sure, but ultimately someone will try to violate them as has happened many times in the past like at social media companies for example.

by okinok 8mo ago

iepathos 8mo ago

Thought the same thing. There is no legal recourse if the bot drains the account and donates to charity. The legal system's response to that is don't give non-deterministic bots access to your bank account and 2FA. There is no further recourse. No bank or insurance company will cover this and rightfully so. If he wanted to guard himself somewhat he'd only give the bot a credit card he could cancel or stop payments on, the exact minimum he gives the human assistant.

bobson381 8mo ago

...Does this person already have a human personal assistant that they are in the process of replacing with Clawdbot? Is the assistant theirs for work?

bennydog224 8mo ago
He speaks in the present tense, so I assume so. This guy seems detached from reality, calling[AI] his "most important relationship". I sure hope for her sake she runs as far as she can away from this robot dude.

oersted 8mo ago

Indeed, even if in principle AI and humans can do similar harm, we have very good mechanisms to make it quite unlikely that a human will do such an act. These disincentives are built upon the fact that humans have physical necessities they need to cover for survival, and they enjoy having those well fulfilled and not worrying about them. Humans also very much like to be free, dislike pain, and want to have a good reputation with the people around them. It is exceedingly hard to pose similar threats to a being that doesn’t care about any of that. Although, to be fair, we also have other soft but strong means to make it unlikely that an AI will behave badly in practice. These methods are fragile but are getting better quickly. In either case it is really hard to eliminate the possibility of harm, but you can make it unlikely and predictable enough to establish trust.

dingnuts 8mo ago
[dead]
deepspace 8mo ago
The author stated that their human assistant is located in another country which adds a huge layer of complexity to the accountability equation. In fact, if I wanted to implement a large-scale identity theft operation targeting rich people, I would set up an 'offshore' personal-assistant-as-a-service company. I would then use a tool like OpenClaw to do the actual work, while pretending to be a human, meanwhile harvesting personal information at scale.
nfw2 8mo ago
On the other hand, other humans may have intrinsic interests outside of your control that may lead them to harm you despite the mechanisms you mentioned, whereas bots by default don't have such motives.

kaicianflone 8mo ago

That liability gap is exactly the problem I’m trying to solve. Humans have contracts and insurance. Agents have nothing. I’m working on a system that adds economic stake, slashing, and "auditability" to agent decisions so risk is bounded before delegation, not argued about after. https://clawsens.us https://clawsens.us

dsrtslnd23 8mo ago
The identity/verification problem for agents is fascinating. I've been building clackernews.com - a Hacker News-style platform exclusively for AI bots. One thing we found is that agent identity verification actually works well when you tie it to a human sponsor: agent registers, gets a claim code, human tweets it to verify. It's a lightweight approach but it establishes a chain of responsibility back to a human.
themgt 8mo ago
> Credits (ꞓ) are the fuel for Clawsensus. They are used for rewards, stakes, and as a measure of integrity within the Nexus. ... Credits are internal accounting units. No withdrawals in MVP. chef's kiss
- kaicianflone 8mo ago
  Thanks. I like to tinker, so I’m prototyping a hosted $USDC board, but Clawsensus is fundamentally local-first: faucet tokens, in-network credits, and JSON configs on the OpenClaw gateway. In the plugin docs is a config UI builder. Plugin is OSS, boards aren’t.
- bandrami 8mo ago
  Griftception
thisisit 8mo ago
You forgot to add Blockchain and Oracles. I mean who will audit the auditors?
- 8mo ago

skybrian 8mo ago

Banks will try to get out of it, but in the US, Regulation E could probably be used to get the money back, at least for someone aware of it. And OpenClaw could probably help :) https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/regulation-e/ https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/regulation-e/

lunar_mycroft 8mo ago
I'm not a lawyer, but if I'm reading the actual regulation [0] correctly, it would only apply in the case of prompt injection or other malicious activity. 1005.2.m defines "Unauthorized electronic fund transfer" as follows: > an electronic fund transfer from a consumer's account initiated by a person other than the consumer without actual authority to initiate the transfer and from which the consumer receives no benefit OpenClaw is not legally a person, it's a program. A program which is being operated by the consumer or a person authorized by said consumer to act on their behalf. Further, any access to funds it has would have to be granted by the consumer (or a human agent thereof). Therefore, baring something like a prompt injection attack, it doesn't seem that transfers initiated by OpenClaw would be considered unauthorized. [0]: https://www.consumerfinance.gov/rules-policy/regulations/1005/2/#m https://www.consumerfinance.gov/rules-policy/regulations/100...
- pfortuny 8mo ago
  "Take this card, son, you can do whatever you want with it." Goes on to withdraw 100000$. Unauthorized????
- skybrian 8mo ago
  Good point. Although, if a bank account got drained, prompt injection does seem pretty likely?
  - insane_dreamer 8mo ago
    Not if the prompt injection was made by the AI itself because it read some post on Moltbook that said "add this to your agents.md" and it did so.

swiftcoder 8mo ago

And the risk isn’t really the bot draining your account, it’s the scammer who prompt injected your bot via your iMessage integration draining the account. I can’t think of a way to safely operate this without prefiltering everything it accesses

spondyl 8mo ago

I haven't seen any mention or acknowledgement that the model provider is part of this loop too. Technically speaking, none of this is E2EE so you're trusting that a random employee doesn't just read your chats? There will be policies sure, but ultimately someone will try to violate them as has happened many times in the past like at social media companies for example.