6 ms·

Working with a Chinese vendors is an adversarial first relationship, where 差不多 is deeeeep in the culture (and, from my experience, tends to survive trips across

by nomel 9mo ago

Working with a Chinese vendors is an adversarial first relationship, where 差不多 is deeeeep in the culture (and, from my experience, tends to survive trips across the ocean). There are professional communication/training courses for working with Chinese vendors/colleagues that spell all of this out, because it's not some secret. It's just a very different culture, with high context communication (I'll let you read what the practical implications of that are elsewhere). Want to have your mind blown? Look up what it means when they say "yes", when you're explaining something. Being a low context person, I have significant and severe communication problems when working with Chinese colleagues/vendors.

throw3836284w 9mo ago
chabuduo is basically fail fast, fail early with Chinese characteristics. Maybe because I was in a frat, but talking to Chinese salespeople seems very similar to talking to my frat brothers. Personally, I never really had too many issues sourcing from China because I made sure I was always introduced to a reliable partner first. And secondly, I told them when deciding on two options, choose the better quality option, regardless of price. Basically, I didn't tell them to save us much money as possible if that made all the difference.
sampullman 9mo ago
I did not find this to be the case, except with a few low quality vendors we ended up dropping. It was mostly the same as anywhere else, you go talk to them in person, tour their facilities/processes, and see what else they've built. I was warned strongly about IP theft and cost cutting, but didn't find that expectation quite met reality. It may have been that our products were mostly un-copyable, and we specified everything precisely, or were just lucky.
myst 9mo ago
Googled that ‘yes’ thing. Not different from my experience in other parts of the world. ‘Yes’ means ‘yes, sir’ only in the army. What is your environment?
- Maxion 9mo ago
  As someone living in the Nordics my experience already with central Europeans and especially so Americans is that these cultures are already much more high context than the Nordics. I guess up here we're all borderline autistic?
  - t0mas88 9mo ago
    I've done business the other way around, Western Europe with Finland. I think it's just different context? There are unwritten customs and meanings in Finland as well, just different ones. Even UK vs Netherlands is a significant difference in how things work in business deals and that's just a 45 min flight. Unspoken expectations are different on how the other side is supposed to behave.
  - 4gotunameagain 9mo ago
    I am entirely convinced that the entire country of Germany suffers from Asperger's. Denmark is a bit better, maybe because they drink more ? Dunno.
    - theodric 9mo ago
      I have observed the same across a bunch of linguistically Germanic countries (DE, AT, CH, NL, DK, NO, haven't been to SE, didn't observe it in IS), and I thought of it as "cultural autism." Apparently "higher context" is the politically correct way to say it. Now I know!
      - 4gotunameagain 9mo ago
        Danish and Norwegian are not linguistically Germanic. If anything, German has more old Norse influences. And dutch.. Well, dutch is the illegitimate child of england and germany.
        Arn_Thor 9mo ago
        >Danish and Norwegian are not linguistically Germanic Where do you get that notion? My education (and some googling to refresh my memory) has Norwegian, Swedish and Danish classed as "North Germanic" according to comparative linguistics. That is one subset of the West Germanic languages which most of northern Europe speaks.
xandrius 9mo ago
Can you share some resources/books/courses to learn more? I'm interested in exploring working with Chinese vendors and it would be nice to learn from someone else before jumping into it.
mlrtime 9mo ago
>Look up what it means when they say "yes", when you're explaining something. Is there a term for this? Because I see it in my personal life as well dealing with some low price manual labor that doesn't speak english. Instructions often get lost in translation, the reply will be "yes" and it doesn't get done. I know they want to sound professional and confident, so saying no or asking questions is a "bad thing".
- pizzafeelsright 9mo ago
  Lying. It is called lying, deceit, or bearing false witness. In my house I do not permit "yeah", or "okay". It is "yes" and anything else is interpreted as a 'no'. Once you press someone to speak a "yes" as a solid commitment, for example to an understanding of an instruction. If this puts the person on the defensive then you are dealing with someone who is not interested in being held accountable. Let your yes be yes.
  - wredcoll 9mo ago
    People are frequently held accountable for things they do not control. Children even more so.
  - nomel 9mo ago
    This isn't fair, because it's misunderstanding the problem. It's not that they're lying, it's that, in their culture, the meaning of yes is something different, meaning "I hear you" rather than "I understand you". If they're not strong with english they might not have a grasp of this, so (in the case of Mandarin as primary language) you have to usually think of it as an empty "uh huh" type filler word, not a word with actual meaning. The real problem I have is the "saving face" concept prevents them admitting they don't understand something. This is where the "high context" part comes in. You can't listen to what they say directly, you have to go off how they say it, and other context clues. This is what I have the biggest problem with. The only way to know if they actually understand something is test their understanding, like have them repeat/explain it back to you. From a low context/western perspective, this results in low verbal trust (because it technically is). I've wasted so many hours on taking something said at face value, that I just default to verifying everything that's said, and trying to be patient when I find out the truth. But, I am getting much better at reading the cues, so can usually spot when the (from my western/low context perspective) bullshit when it starts. There are old stereotypes around this clash of meaning/culture, but it really is just that. If you're from their culture, and speak their language, there's no "bullshitting" or "lying". From what I've been told, it's incredibly clear when someone is saving face, and it's very clear what the response should be, to "help" them save face. Westerners are, literally, just blind to it all. It's an incompatible mindset and language/expression that requires a robust translation layer that needs to exist in one of the parties. I seem to be mostly incapable of high context communication, even in english, so I'm just as "at fault" in the two party role of communication.
weebull 9mo ago
Given that Mandarin has many forms of "yes", isn't the problem that all those forms map on to our singular "yes". For a native speaker "yeeeessss" means something very different to "yes", but they would use a different word. Knowing which is being spoken or heard is going to be hard.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]

by nomel 9mo ago

throw3836284w 9mo ago

chabuduo is basically fail fast, fail early with Chinese characteristics. Maybe because I was in a frat, but talking to Chinese salespeople seems very similar to talking to my frat brothers. Personally, I never really had too many issues sourcing from China because I made sure I was always introduced to a reliable partner first. And secondly, I told them when deciding on two options, choose the better quality option, regardless of price. Basically, I didn't tell them to save us much money as possible if that made all the difference.

sampullman 9mo ago

I did not find this to be the case, except with a few low quality vendors we ended up dropping. It was mostly the same as anywhere else, you go talk to them in person, tour their facilities/processes, and see what else they've built. I was warned strongly about IP theft and cost cutting, but didn't find that expectation quite met reality. It may have been that our products were mostly un-copyable, and we specified everything precisely, or were just lucky.

myst 9mo ago

Googled that ‘yes’ thing. Not different from my experience in other parts of the world. ‘Yes’ means ‘yes, sir’ only in the army. What is your environment?

Maxion 9mo ago
As someone living in the Nordics my experience already with central Europeans and especially so Americans is that these cultures are already much more high context than the Nordics. I guess up here we're all borderline autistic?
- t0mas88 9mo ago
  I've done business the other way around, Western Europe with Finland. I think it's just different context? There are unwritten customs and meanings in Finland as well, just different ones. Even UK vs Netherlands is a significant difference in how things work in business deals and that's just a 45 min flight. Unspoken expectations are different on how the other side is supposed to behave.
- 4gotunameagain 9mo ago
  I am entirely convinced that the entire country of Germany suffers from Asperger's. Denmark is a bit better, maybe because they drink more ? Dunno.
  - theodric 9mo ago
    I have observed the same across a bunch of linguistically Germanic countries (DE, AT, CH, NL, DK, NO, haven't been to SE, didn't observe it in IS), and I thought of it as "cultural autism." Apparently "higher context" is the politically correct way to say it. Now I know!
    - 4gotunameagain 9mo ago
      Danish and Norwegian are not linguistically Germanic. If anything, German has more old Norse influences. And dutch.. Well, dutch is the illegitimate child of england and germany.
      - Arn_Thor 9mo ago
        >Danish and Norwegian are not linguistically Germanic Where do you get that notion? My education (and some googling to refresh my memory) has Norwegian, Swedish and Danish classed as "North Germanic" according to comparative linguistics. That is one subset of the West Germanic languages which most of northern Europe speaks.

xandrius 9mo ago

Can you share some resources/books/courses to learn more? I'm interested in exploring working with Chinese vendors and it would be nice to learn from someone else before jumping into it.

mlrtime 9mo ago

>Look up what it means when they say "yes", when you're explaining something. Is there a term for this? Because I see it in my personal life as well dealing with some low price manual labor that doesn't speak english. Instructions often get lost in translation, the reply will be "yes" and it doesn't get done. I know they want to sound professional and confident, so saying no or asking questions is a "bad thing".

pizzafeelsright 9mo ago
Lying. It is called lying, deceit, or bearing false witness. In my house I do not permit "yeah", or "okay". It is "yes" and anything else is interpreted as a 'no'. Once you press someone to speak a "yes" as a solid commitment, for example to an understanding of an instruction. If this puts the person on the defensive then you are dealing with someone who is not interested in being held accountable. Let your yes be yes.
- wredcoll 9mo ago
  People are frequently held accountable for things they do not control. Children even more so.
- nomel 9mo ago
  This isn't fair, because it's misunderstanding the problem. It's not that they're lying, it's that, in their culture, the meaning of yes is something different, meaning "I hear you" rather than "I understand you". If they're not strong with english they might not have a grasp of this, so (in the case of Mandarin as primary language) you have to usually think of it as an empty "uh huh" type filler word, not a word with actual meaning. The real problem I have is the "saving face" concept prevents them admitting they don't understand something. This is where the "high context" part comes in. You can't listen to what they say directly, you have to go off how they say it, and other context clues. This is what I have the biggest problem with. The only way to know if they actually understand something is test their understanding, like have them repeat/explain it back to you. From a low context/western perspective, this results in low verbal trust (because it technically is). I've wasted so many hours on taking something said at face value, that I just default to verifying everything that's said, and trying to be patient when I find out the truth. But, I am getting much better at reading the cues, so can usually spot when the (from my western/low context perspective) bullshit when it starts. There are old stereotypes around this clash of meaning/culture, but it really is just that. If you're from their culture, and speak their language, there's no "bullshitting" or "lying". From what I've been told, it's incredibly clear when someone is saving face, and it's very clear what the response should be, to "help" them save face. Westerners are, literally, just blind to it all. It's an incompatible mindset and language/expression that requires a robust translation layer that needs to exist in one of the parties. I seem to be mostly incapable of high context communication, even in english, so I'm just as "at fault" in the two party role of communication.

weebull 9mo ago

Given that Mandarin has many forms of "yes", isn't the problem that all those forms map on to our singular "yes". For a native speaker "yeeeessss" means something very different to "yes", but they would use a different word. Knowing which is being spoken or heard is going to be hard.

deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]