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> Even before AI, why would ever hire a junior dev? Were you ever a junior developer? Ever work with, and learn from, people who once were?

raw_anon_1111 8mo ago
Well actually as a professional - no. By the time I got my first job in 1996 I had been a hobbyist writing in assembly language for Apple //es and played around with it for 68k, PPC and x86 computers. Three months into my first job as the only person who could code - I was hired as a computer operator based on a prior internship - I was tasked with writing a relatively complicated data entry system in C that ran across 12 network computers. I had to talk to the customer for the new contract and demo it. We ran the data entry center. 30 years later if I had to do the same using modern technology (pre AI), it would still take me maybe 3-4 months to get it done by myself. Now on the other hand, I did admittedly become an “expert beginner” at my second job between 2002-2008. But that’s besides the point , I have had two open reqs that I had to fight for and I’m judged based on my ability as a lead to get work done on time, within budget and meets requirements. I hired a senior who I used my filter for at my last job. Why would I hire a junior that puts more work on me and my team? I told him on a very high level “we need $x, these are the only constraints we are working under”. He came back with a design plan, he did the implementation, the design review and I gladly stepped back and gave him all of the credit. That’s always my m.o., I’m far past the point where I need the glory.
- andyjohnson0 8mo ago
  Thats a nice story. But it doesn't seem like a plan. If its no longer worth hiring junior devs, then fairly soon there'll be few mid-level devs. And after that almost no senior developers. Is that the plan?
  - raw_anon_1111 8mo ago
    That’s a collective action problem - that’s not anyone’s problem who is currently working as a hiring manager. If I were a hiring manager - I’m not now. But I’m in the interview pool as what Amazon would call the “bar raiser” (former employee) - my goal is to make sure my department goals are met - not what is going to happen in the industry in a decade or two. Besides, the average tenure of any developer is around 2-4 years, how does my department or company benefit from hiring juniors? I’m incentivized as is everyone in seniors positions to meet quarterly and annual goals. And going back to my previous (true) story, why should I take on the work of a junior dev along with all of my other work when I could and did just throw an ambiguous project at a senior?

raw_anon_1111 8mo ago

Well actually as a professional - no. By the time I got my first job in 1996 I had been a hobbyist writing in assembly language for Apple //es and played around with it for 68k, PPC and x86 computers. Three months into my first job as the only person who could code - I was hired as a computer operator based on a prior internship - I was tasked with writing a relatively complicated data entry system in C that ran across 12 network computers. I had to talk to the customer for the new contract and demo it. We ran the data entry center. 30 years later if I had to do the same using modern technology (pre AI), it would still take me maybe 3-4 months to get it done by myself. Now on the other hand, I did admittedly become an “expert beginner” at my second job between 2002-2008. But that’s besides the point , I have had two open reqs that I had to fight for and I’m judged based on my ability as a lead to get work done on time, within budget and meets requirements. I hired a senior who I used my filter for at my last job. Why would I hire a junior that puts more work on me and my team? I told him on a very high level “we need $x, these are the only constraints we are working under”. He came back with a design plan, he did the implementation, the design review and I gladly stepped back and gave him all of the credit. That’s always my m.o., I’m far past the point where I need the glory.

andyjohnson0 8mo ago
Thats a nice story. But it doesn't seem like a plan. If its no longer worth hiring junior devs, then fairly soon there'll be few mid-level devs. And after that almost no senior developers. Is that the plan?
- raw_anon_1111 8mo ago
  That’s a collective action problem - that’s not anyone’s problem who is currently working as a hiring manager. If I were a hiring manager - I’m not now. But I’m in the interview pool as what Amazon would call the “bar raiser” (former employee) - my goal is to make sure my department goals are met - not what is going to happen in the industry in a decade or two. Besides, the average tenure of any developer is around 2-4 years, how does my department or company benefit from hiring juniors? I’m incentivized as is everyone in seniors positions to meet quarterly and annual goals. And going back to my previous (true) story, why should I take on the work of a junior dev along with all of my other work when I could and did just throw an ambiguous project at a senior?