7 ms·

Forearms yes, percussion caps no. A large fraction of the harm from firearms comes from their ability to fire rapidly which didn’t exist when the constitution

• ndriscoll 9mo ago
  The Girardoni repeating air rifle predates the ratification of the constitution by ~11 years and was taken on the Lewis and Clark expedition ~13 years later. Really the whole discussion around 2A is usually nonsense because it ignores the context that the entire Bill of Rights had a completely different meaning prior to the 14th amendment leading to incorporation over the last century (and other expansions of federal power via commerce clause); that is, the Bill of Rights originally did not apply to the states. Very obviously individuals were expected to be part of the militia, which was the military at the time (c.f. the Militia Acts 2 years after ratification requiring individual gun ownership and very clearly laying out that all able-bodied white male citizens aged 18-45 were part of the militia), but also states could regulate weapons if they wanted.
  • Retric 9mo ago
    > Girardoni repeating air rifle Not a firearm. I didn’t say we could ban compressed air powered guns, I specifically said percussion caps. The Girardoni was way less dangerous than a modern handgun.
    • ndriscoll 9mo ago
      Sure, but compressed air guns are deadly (you can find videos of people using them on deer on youtube, or if you want something less graphic, you can find ballistic gel test videos), and a repeating rifle did exist at the time and was used a couple years later by an official American expedition commissioned by Jefferson. So fast-firing weapons were not some alien technology. The wider context also makes it clear that 2A was supposed to give individuals the right to own whatever weapons the military uses because at the time, there was no standing military. Individuals were summoned and expected to bring their own weapons, hence the law requiring them to own them. In the 230 intervening years, we've vastly increased the scope of the federal government and developed a formal military, so one might argue we ought to amend the constitution to change exactly what's allowed under 2A (e.g. it should be straightforward to have a nuclear weapons ban added with unanimous agreement), but as it stands, 2A (+14A) clearly gives individuals the right to own the arms necessary to run a functioning ("well-regulated") militia, which in 2026 means at least semi-automatic firearms.
      • Retric 9mo ago
        > So fast-firing weapons were not some alien technology. Thrown stones are a fast firing deadly weapon. They, compressed air guns, and ball musket etc aren’t used by modern military forces in combat because they are less dangerous. A rule that allows compressed air weapons yet bans percussion caps is quite reasonable and could pass constitutional scrutiny.
        • ndriscoll 9mo ago
          It might be quite reasonable, but it would also quite clearly require an amendment to do in the US, which is what you originally replied to.
          • Retric 9mo ago
            Grenades a clear requirement for a modern infantry are also banned, thus eliminating any argument that a modern standards of military efficiency apply. Banding heavy machine guns yet another invention after the constitution was written didn’t, so there’s clear present this wouldn’t either.
            • kube-system 9mo ago
              Except "it was made after the constitution was written" is a standard you've made up -- there is existing case law from SCOTUS that 2A protects guns "in common use"
              • Retric 9mo ago
                Actually things that are new after the constitution was written is regularly brought up before the court it’s a very common argument. The thing was written a long time ago, everyone involved in the process acknowledges that fact. The degree to which papers applies to electronic data should be familiar to you. Supreme court rulings are arbitrary as they regularly reverse or update standards, sometimes multiple times.
    • AngryData 9mo ago
      The Girardoni is certainly and unusual example but is deadly. However more importantly it is far from the first repeating firearm. There is the Kalthoff and Cookson repeating rifles as the most prominent examples. And both Jefferson and Washington personally got offered to purchase repeating firearms per their own journals, im im sure they weren't the only founders to receive such offers for both personal and military usage.
      • Retric 9mo ago
        Again way less dangerous than a modern firearm. “Repeating” here ignores the actual rate of fire of a Kalthoff or the even worse Cookson design. Especially when you consider how slow reloading is vs modern firearms. How many lives would have been saved at the Las Vegas massacre if Paddock has been limited to these designs? I’d say 30 is a safe bet but that’s probably a low estimate.
• 9x39 9mo ago
  The balance of power being considered then was between the state and the people. Fear over a standing army was real.
  • Retric 9mo ago
    Crime exited when the constitution was written, suggesting the framers were only concerned with interactions at the state level is to insult their intelligence. Not to mention specific text like people’s rights to a jury trial etc.
    • 9x39 9mo ago
      Principally concerned between the state and the people, not only. The context was the nature of England at the time. It was viewed as an oppressive force. The right to a jury trial is another example of favoring the individual instead of say, the Star Chamber: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Chamber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Chamber I don’t think we even disagree per se, but it’s hard to argue the constitution wasn’t written primarily with the thought of what England and how it exercised authority in mind. Individual roadmen and ruffians, let’s say, existed but weren’t existential threats to shape the tone of the new nation’s foundation, were they?
      • Retric 9mo ago
        Lawlessness is a complete breakdown of state power and just as threatening to a new country as foreign powers. The degree of importance they place on individual factors here is obviously debatable, but they just had two governments fail. England and the articles of confederation didn’t work so there was a larger emphasis on practicality over idealism.
• kube-system 9mo ago
  1. The second amendment wasn't written because the authors thought guns were inert. It was written precisely because they could impart deadly force. 2. As someone else pointed out, early repeating rifles did exist then. 3. If the meaning of the constitution is only to be evaluated against the technology available at the time -- what does that say about the validity of the 1st or 4th amendments with modern technology?
  • Retric 9mo ago
    Air guns existed sure. There’s a reason those aren’t used by the military today, they just aren’t that dangerous.
    • kube-system 9mo ago
      They're deadly and rapid fire. But again, in historical context, the point of the 2A was to permit people to own the most deadly weapons of war that existed at that time.
      • Retric 9mo ago
        > They’re deadly and rapid fire So are a pile of stones, it’s the degree of risk to the public that matters not some arbitrary classification. Ignoring differences is degree here isn’t enough to win the argument.
        • kube-system 9mo ago
          That is an argument that people make today. Where was that part of the decision making process in 1789?
          • Retric 9mo ago
            Firearms (ops Arms) was used rather than weapons suggesting some level of consideration here. They had cannons and warships back then. That bit about a well regulated militia suggests limits on what exactly was permissible. But obviously we don’t have direct knowledge of every conversation.