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Is this not more a self control and discipline issue than an issue with the tools? The phone plays audio better than the CD player, fits in the pocket better th

Is this not more a self control and discipline issue than an issue with the tools? The phone plays audio better than the CD player, fits in the pocket better than anything there, takes better pictures, etc etc. It feels like most of this issue could be solved by changing the way you interact with it. TV is the same. Some people turn on the tv and “flick” to see what’s on to watch to fill time, some people turn it on with purpose when time has been carved out for something specific.

AmbroseBierce 8mo ago
Self control and discipline are not cognitively free, they take an amount of effort that you may rather spend in something more useful.
the_snooze 8mo ago
It's the tools. Friction and barriers aren't bad things. When you have a CD player, there's a higher barrier to switching from "listening to music" to "doing something else." It's something I noticed in myself when I switched from streaming services to a curated local library. I actually listen to entire albums and savor them instead of jumping around from one infinite content firehose to another. Streaming is convenient, but the friction of maintaining a local library makes it meaningful.
compass_copium 8mo ago
Sure, but that's kind of like saying meth is a better productivity tool than coffee, it's just a self-discipline issue to use it safely. Phones are inherently designed to be addicting.
- btbuildem 8mo ago
  Not phones. There are a handful of apps on these phones that are the equivalent of meth. The infrastructure powering those apps should be seized and repurposed for public good, the proprietors / owners should be charged with crimes against humanity and punished most severely. If you think this is hyperbole or over-reacting, you're either too far gone, or part of the problem and should be included in the erasure.
egypturnash 8mo ago
None of these devices contain a portal to the internet. None of them contain apps that bombard you with notifications to try and get you to spend hours in them. None of these devices have been relentlessly A/B tested to maximize addictiveness.
- treetalker 8mo ago
  To me that sounds like, "yes, it is a self-control and discipline issue — and the solution is forced abstention, à la mode d'Odysseus tying himself to the mast." (Although the old tactician did so to keep his ears unplugged and experience the sirens without the usual catastrophe.)
  - cindyllm 8mo ago
    [dead]
  - egypturnash 8mo ago
    Except instead of the Sirens hanging out on a remote island, they hang out in your pocket and there's a huge corporate machine who is constantly trying to find new ways to get the Sirens in front of you because they make money off of every person the Sirens lure to their death.
- bdavbdav 8mo ago
  Then curate those apps. My wife doesn’t run the social media apps on the phone, forcing her to make a conscious decision to pull out an iPad. The Apps I use are largely work, browser, email, Strava(/garmin/athlytic), maps, music and smart home control / network tools. It’s just about being conscious of what you put on it and what you use it for.
  - egypturnash 8mo ago
    Oh certainly, I do this myself. But out of the box all this shit is constantly begging you for your attention, they come with so many attention sinks installed that you have to find time and energy to sit down and curate, there's entire huge industries based on getting you to stare at your phone forever that you have to consciously spend time and effort to get rid of, versus "this ipod just plays music and cannot do anything else".
PunchyHamster 8mo ago
It is exactly that. And the method used is basically adding inconvenience for no good reason and seems more like a hobby than actual measure. That is not to piss on single use devices, I still have calculator on my desk just because it is more convenient for me to have key per function, but most of those are outright worse experience. Tho there is something to be said for pressing play and just getting music instead of waiting for spotify mobile app to sort its mess and still somehow forget on what state it was last time...
piyh 8mo ago
The tools feed into self control.
rchaud 8mo ago
MP3 players don't send me notifications, or show me the latest AI DJ playlists or advertise podcasts I have no interest in. The issue isn't self control, it's platform bloat and engagement optimization.
mingus88 8mo ago
The apps designed for phones are known to use addictive patterns with measured negative effects on our brains. Why even bother trying to moderate the use of a device that has been purpose built to hook into our reward centers like a slot machine? An addict’s worst enemy is “just one more can’t hurt”
Liftyee 8mo ago
Is consciously rejecting deliberately addictive short-form content and sacrificing convenience in favour of purpose not a sign of self control and discipline? I've often thought the same as you wrote in your comment, but my inner contrarian just gave me an answer. I think it takes discipline to accept that it's impossible (for you) to "purposefully" use short form content and choose the higher-friction option of single purpose devices. The discipline just happens at a higher level, where the Pavlovian temptation to scroll hasn't kicked in yet. For some reason, that option is commonly seen as lack of self control. Perhaps that is true in the literal definition of the word, but I'd argue (since the result is the same - less time wasted) that it's equal to not scrolling when you have a phone. Granted, less drastic options are available. I've installed a lot of feed-blocking plugins and time limits (HN noprocrast) which works reasonably well for me.
iamnothere 8mo ago
1) Choosing to split up tools in this way is a valid form of self control called precommitment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precommitment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precommitment 2) Apps may change and often experience “enshittification.” Hardware can break but non-connected hardware is otherwise unlikely to change. 3) Many apps collect private data through telemetry or ad networks. Data may leak or be sold. 4) Decoupling allows you to precommit to different situations. For example, you could bring your media player but not your phone to your workout if you have trouble staying on task, or if you just want to disconnect for a while. 5) Many people have limits to their self control, hence the prevalence of destructive addictions (gambling, alcohol, drugs) in society. For these people it’s a good idea to precommit when possible in addition to working on other skills to manage the problem.
- the_snooze 8mo ago
  >Apps may change and often experience “enshittification.” Hardware can break but non-connected hardware is otherwise unlikely to change. This is a huge part of it. Connected apps are never complete. They can't be. They must always evolve in pursuit of the marginal user, eventually betraying their core audience. An unconnected single-purpose device doesn't need to make anyone happy other than the user who owns and operates it, which makes it more valuable for the user in the long-run.

AmbroseBierce 8mo ago

Self control and discipline are not cognitively free, they take an amount of effort that you may rather spend in something more useful.

the_snooze 8mo ago

It's the tools. Friction and barriers aren't bad things. When you have a CD player, there's a higher barrier to switching from "listening to music" to "doing something else." It's something I noticed in myself when I switched from streaming services to a curated local library. I actually listen to entire albums and savor them instead of jumping around from one infinite content firehose to another. Streaming is convenient, but the friction of maintaining a local library makes it meaningful.

compass_copium 8mo ago

Sure, but that's kind of like saying meth is a better productivity tool than coffee, it's just a self-discipline issue to use it safely. Phones are inherently designed to be addicting.

btbuildem 8mo ago
Not phones. There are a handful of apps on these phones that are the equivalent of meth. The infrastructure powering those apps should be seized and repurposed for public good, the proprietors / owners should be charged with crimes against humanity and punished most severely. If you think this is hyperbole or over-reacting, you're either too far gone, or part of the problem and should be included in the erasure.

egypturnash 8mo ago

None of these devices contain a portal to the internet. None of them contain apps that bombard you with notifications to try and get you to spend hours in them. None of these devices have been relentlessly A/B tested to maximize addictiveness.

treetalker 8mo ago
To me that sounds like, "yes, it is a self-control and discipline issue — and the solution is forced abstention, à la mode d'Odysseus tying himself to the mast." (Although the old tactician did so to keep his ears unplugged and experience the sirens without the usual catastrophe.)
- cindyllm 8mo ago
  [dead]
- egypturnash 8mo ago
  Except instead of the Sirens hanging out on a remote island, they hang out in your pocket and there's a huge corporate machine who is constantly trying to find new ways to get the Sirens in front of you because they make money off of every person the Sirens lure to their death.
bdavbdav 8mo ago
Then curate those apps. My wife doesn’t run the social media apps on the phone, forcing her to make a conscious decision to pull out an iPad. The Apps I use are largely work, browser, email, Strava(/garmin/athlytic), maps, music and smart home control / network tools. It’s just about being conscious of what you put on it and what you use it for.
- egypturnash 8mo ago
  Oh certainly, I do this myself. But out of the box all this shit is constantly begging you for your attention, they come with so many attention sinks installed that you have to find time and energy to sit down and curate, there's entire huge industries based on getting you to stare at your phone forever that you have to consciously spend time and effort to get rid of, versus "this ipod just plays music and cannot do anything else".

PunchyHamster 8mo ago

It is exactly that. And the method used is basically adding inconvenience for no good reason and seems more like a hobby than actual measure. That is not to piss on single use devices, I still have calculator on my desk just because it is more convenient for me to have key per function, but most of those are outright worse experience. Tho there is something to be said for pressing play and just getting music instead of waiting for spotify mobile app to sort its mess and still somehow forget on what state it was last time...

piyh 8mo ago

The tools feed into self control.

rchaud 8mo ago

MP3 players don't send me notifications, or show me the latest AI DJ playlists or advertise podcasts I have no interest in. The issue isn't self control, it's platform bloat and engagement optimization.

mingus88 8mo ago

The apps designed for phones are known to use addictive patterns with measured negative effects on our brains. Why even bother trying to moderate the use of a device that has been purpose built to hook into our reward centers like a slot machine? An addict’s worst enemy is “just one more can’t hurt”

Liftyee 8mo ago

Is consciously rejecting deliberately addictive short-form content and sacrificing convenience in favour of purpose not a sign of self control and discipline? I've often thought the same as you wrote in your comment, but my inner contrarian just gave me an answer. I think it takes discipline to accept that it's impossible (for you) to "purposefully" use short form content and choose the higher-friction option of single purpose devices. The discipline just happens at a higher level, where the Pavlovian temptation to scroll hasn't kicked in yet. For some reason, that option is commonly seen as lack of self control. Perhaps that is true in the literal definition of the word, but I'd argue (since the result is the same - less time wasted) that it's equal to not scrolling when you have a phone. Granted, less drastic options are available. I've installed a lot of feed-blocking plugins and time limits (HN noprocrast) which works reasonably well for me.

iamnothere 8mo ago

1) Choosing to split up tools in this way is a valid form of self control called precommitment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precommitment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precommitment 2) Apps may change and often experience “enshittification.” Hardware can break but non-connected hardware is otherwise unlikely to change. 3) Many apps collect private data through telemetry or ad networks. Data may leak or be sold. 4) Decoupling allows you to precommit to different situations. For example, you could bring your media player but not your phone to your workout if you have trouble staying on task, or if you just want to disconnect for a while. 5) Many people have limits to their self control, hence the prevalence of destructive addictions (gambling, alcohol, drugs) in society. For these people it’s a good idea to precommit when possible in addition to working on other skills to manage the problem.

the_snooze 8mo ago
>Apps may change and often experience “enshittification.” Hardware can break but non-connected hardware is otherwise unlikely to change. This is a huge part of it. Connected apps are never complete. They can't be. They must always evolve in pursuit of the marginal user, eventually betraying their core audience. An unconnected single-purpose device doesn't need to make anyone happy other than the user who owns and operates it, which makes it more valuable for the user in the long-run.