7 ms·

I find it strange to call it 1.0 while remoting is still on the todo list. The age of vertical scaling, owning one big computer and sitting at its console, is w

I find it strange to call it 1.0 while remoting is still on the todo list. The age of vertical scaling, owning one big computer and sitting at its console, is well into decline.

wtallis 14y ago
Even with cloud computing, all the rendering and half of the other processing is done client-side. Pushing pixels or low-level drawing commands over the network is not the way technology is heading.
- ch6530 14y ago
  The current trend in scientific computing is to put GPUs on the server and push pixels to the client, e.g. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/software-switch-to-save-santos-25m/story-e6frgakx-1226057034041 http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/software-switc...
  - Sanddancer 14y ago
    For which they're using VNC, not X forwarding. There are a lot of ways to push those pixels that don't involve X.
  - levesque 14y ago
    Oh, it's a trend? How often is scientific computing about pixels anyway? I'm willing to bet not very often. Most of the time the results are a bunch of digits, a few matrices at most - a configuration, a solution to a problem.
- billwashere 14y ago
  Whilst I don't want this to happen, what about Cloud Gaming? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_gaming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_gaming)
  - sagarm 14y ago
    In this case, the "client" would be the game render server. Your terminal -- which has the display -- is the "server." This is already the way OnLive, for example, works. All the rendering is done on the server side, which corresponds to the Wayland/X11 client.
  - wtallis 14y ago
    Cloud gaming can't work on the Internet as it currently exists. Latency is just too high and too variable, especially for consumer-grade connections when they get near saturation. When bufferbloat is a thing of the past, it might be possible. However, even smartphones are coming with highly capable GPUs these days, so within a few years, any CPU no matter how cheap will be able to handle at least casual gaming at HD resolutions.
marssaxman 14y ago
Perhaps they figure VNC and SSH do enough of the job for most people. Certainly works for me... I can't remember the last time I needed more than ssh to work on some remote machine.
- alexchamberlain 14y ago
  Did you use SSH with X forwarding though?
  - raverbashing 14y ago
    X over SSH in my experience is much harder to configure, and slower Some people claim it depends on adequately configuring X, which may be true, but it's much easier to configure VNC over SSH to have an acceptable performance
    - SeppoErviala 14y ago
      I think the main argument for remote X is that it is so easy to use between 2 true X11 environments. You just `ssh -X` to your target and start running programs. On Windows or OSX though... If you were going to install X11 why not skip it and just install VNC?
      - w0utert 14y ago
        Maybe I don't want to run a full X session on my remote machine, just to run a simple X client and have it displayed on my local desktop? VNC is no alternative for running individual applications remotely. Remote desktop != remote X.
        ansible 14y ago
        That's exactly what 'ssh -X' is for.
        mercurial 14y ago
brian_cloutier 14y ago
1.0 means a different thing to developers than it does to consumers. API backwards-compatibility is a very important thing, and calling this 1.0 is a signal to developers that it's safe to start building things on top of Wayland that should keep running without modifications for a very long time.
i386 14y ago
Having a release people can start using now to test their apps against and write new apps for is the most important next step for them. Remoting isn't as important when you have options like VNC to fall back on. Its a minor inconvenience at the most and I believe the've made the right call to ship something usable now.
- webreac 14y ago
  How could any unix user conceive that remoting is not important. 99% of the gui I launch are remote. In fact I do not even know where are half the workstation I use. Regularly, I have to give support to portugal or italia, they open a internet connection, so that I can log on their system. With a simple ssh -Y, I can perform all the investigations I need.
  - jamespo 14y ago
    Probably because most unix users just use console ssh or web GUIs for remote access.
  - CJefferson 14y ago
    I personally find vnc or NoMachine NX better than X sharing. The main reason for this is that my programs don't quit if my connection goes down. While I do hope for a good remoting system, I'm not sure that 'ssh -Y' is the best way to do it any more.
    - webreac 14y ago
      ssh works out of the box everywhere. I can be connected on as many hosts as I want, launch any graphical application, anywhere and they just display correctly. I can not imagine launching a different X server almost for each application I am running. I have a single X server and often tenth of clients running on three of four different hosts. And when I have to access an "external site", I just phone them, so that they "open" the connection, then I do my ssh -Y and I can launch many GUI running on all their hosts to investigate their issues. I have NoMachine NX on my home computer. It is very useful, but it is far more heavy weight than a simple ssh with X11 forwarding.
qznc 14y ago
Wayland is essentially to effort to move responsibilities to different layers. Some things are pushed down to the kernel (memory management, command scheduling, mode setting) or similar infrastructure (OpenGL, udev). Some things are pushed upwards to the clients (font rendering, window decorations, vector drawing, remote access). This means Wayland has much less to do compared to X.org and that is a good thing, because it removes code duplication and unecessary complexity. http://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html http://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html
jdhore 14y ago
I kind of disagree. The entire point of Wayland is to remove deprecated, crufty stuff to make a new form of display server. Remoting (in its current form) was on the list of stuff to remove. If you need remoting, for probably a fairly long way into the future, X11 will still be supported and you can use that. If you want the new shininess of Wayland, sorry, you have to live without remote capabilities.

I find it strange to call it 1.0 while remoting is still on the todo list. The age of vertical scaling, owning one big computer and sitting at its console, is well into decline.

wtallis 14y ago

Even with cloud computing, all the rendering and half of the other processing is done client-side. Pushing pixels or low-level drawing commands over the network is not the way technology is heading.

ch6530 14y ago
The current trend in scientific computing is to put GPUs on the server and push pixels to the client, e.g. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/software-switch-to-save-santos-25m/story-e6frgakx-1226057034041 http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/software-switc...
- Sanddancer 14y ago
  For which they're using VNC, not X forwarding. There are a lot of ways to push those pixels that don't involve X.
- levesque 14y ago
  Oh, it's a trend? How often is scientific computing about pixels anyway? I'm willing to bet not very often. Most of the time the results are a bunch of digits, a few matrices at most - a configuration, a solution to a problem.
billwashere 14y ago
Whilst I don't want this to happen, what about Cloud Gaming? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_gaming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_gaming)
- sagarm 14y ago
  In this case, the "client" would be the game render server. Your terminal -- which has the display -- is the "server." This is already the way OnLive, for example, works. All the rendering is done on the server side, which corresponds to the Wayland/X11 client.
- wtallis 14y ago
  Cloud gaming can't work on the Internet as it currently exists. Latency is just too high and too variable, especially for consumer-grade connections when they get near saturation. When bufferbloat is a thing of the past, it might be possible. However, even smartphones are coming with highly capable GPUs these days, so within a few years, any CPU no matter how cheap will be able to handle at least casual gaming at HD resolutions.

marssaxman 14y ago

Perhaps they figure VNC and SSH do enough of the job for most people. Certainly works for me... I can't remember the last time I needed more than ssh to work on some remote machine.

alexchamberlain 14y ago
Did you use SSH with X forwarding though?
- raverbashing 14y ago
  X over SSH in my experience is much harder to configure, and slower Some people claim it depends on adequately configuring X, which may be true, but it's much easier to configure VNC over SSH to have an acceptable performance
  - SeppoErviala 14y ago
    I think the main argument for remote X is that it is so easy to use between 2 true X11 environments. You just `ssh -X` to your target and start running programs. On Windows or OSX though... If you were going to install X11 why not skip it and just install VNC?
    - w0utert 14y ago
      Maybe I don't want to run a full X session on my remote machine, just to run a simple X client and have it displayed on my local desktop? VNC is no alternative for running individual applications remotely. Remote desktop != remote X.
      - ansible 14y ago
        That's exactly what 'ssh -X' is for.
        mercurial 14y ago

brian_cloutier 14y ago

1.0 means a different thing to developers than it does to consumers. API backwards-compatibility is a very important thing, and calling this 1.0 is a signal to developers that it's safe to start building things on top of Wayland that should keep running without modifications for a very long time.

i386 14y ago

Having a release people can start using now to test their apps against and write new apps for is the most important next step for them. Remoting isn't as important when you have options like VNC to fall back on. Its a minor inconvenience at the most and I believe the've made the right call to ship something usable now.

webreac 14y ago
How could any unix user conceive that remoting is not important. 99% of the gui I launch are remote. In fact I do not even know where are half the workstation I use. Regularly, I have to give support to portugal or italia, they open a internet connection, so that I can log on their system. With a simple ssh -Y, I can perform all the investigations I need.
- jamespo 14y ago
  Probably because most unix users just use console ssh or web GUIs for remote access.
- CJefferson 14y ago
  I personally find vnc or NoMachine NX better than X sharing. The main reason for this is that my programs don't quit if my connection goes down. While I do hope for a good remoting system, I'm not sure that 'ssh -Y' is the best way to do it any more.
  - webreac 14y ago
    ssh works out of the box everywhere. I can be connected on as many hosts as I want, launch any graphical application, anywhere and they just display correctly. I can not imagine launching a different X server almost for each application I am running. I have a single X server and often tenth of clients running on three of four different hosts. And when I have to access an "external site", I just phone them, so that they "open" the connection, then I do my ssh -Y and I can launch many GUI running on all their hosts to investigate their issues. I have NoMachine NX on my home computer. It is very useful, but it is far more heavy weight than a simple ssh with X11 forwarding.

qznc 14y ago

Wayland is essentially to effort to move responsibilities to different layers. Some things are pushed down to the kernel (memory management, command scheduling, mode setting) or similar infrastructure (OpenGL, udev). Some things are pushed upwards to the clients (font rendering, window decorations, vector drawing, remote access). This means Wayland has much less to do compared to X.org and that is a good thing, because it removes code duplication and unecessary complexity. http://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html http://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html

jdhore 14y ago

I kind of disagree. The entire point of Wayland is to remove deprecated, crufty stuff to make a new form of display server. Remoting (in its current form) was on the list of stuff to remove. If you need remoting, for probably a fairly long way into the future, X11 will still be supported and you can use that. If you want the new shininess of Wayland, sorry, you have to live without remote capabilities.