4 ms·

The community has been in a deadlock over making FSRS the default (https://github.com/ankitects/anki/issues/3616 https://github.com/ankitects/anki/issues/3616),

by Shank 8mo ago

The community has been in a deadlock over making FSRS the default (https://github.com/ankitects/anki/issues/3616 https://github.com/ankitects/anki/issues/3616), and I wonder if this will lead to some resolution. It seems like the core things that Anki needs are new user experience improvements, and algorithm updates. SM2 really shows its age as compared to other algorithms.

SpaceManNabs 8mo ago
Is there that much of a difference?
- Ifkaluva 8mo ago
  As a user, it’s a HUGE difference. FSRS leads to an incredibly reduced workload.
  - watwut 8mo ago
    Yes, because intervals on some cards become absurdly large (4 years after seeing the card twice) .
    - sambapa 8mo ago
      If the algorithm says so, so it is.
      - mchaver 8mo ago
        Our data in the cloud, hallowed be thy computation, your kingdom come, your will be done, on our devices as it is in the cloud. Give us today our daily feed.
        cwnyth 8mo ago
        And forgive us for our typos, as we forgive those typo [sic] against us.
    - KPGv2 8mo ago
      This sounds like some absurd mis-optimization of parameters on your part.
- saubeidl 8mo ago
  Yeah, FSRS is much better. For me it was the difference between learning 10 new words of Mandarin a day and learning 20, with the same time commitment.
  - apt-apt-apt-apt 8mo ago
    Does using FSRS result in less retention, due to scheduling less reviews than other systems? Or is it actually more efficient in a meaningful way by cutting out unnecessary reviews?
    - zelphirkalt 8mo ago
      The goal is of course the latter.
    - jdahlin 8mo ago
      The goal of the scheduling algorithm is to predict the optimal time for when you need to review your card again. FSRS has a bunch of parameters tja you can customize based on previous learning attempts, usually a few 100 cards is enough to adapt to your own learning abilities, but in current Anki versions you need to manually update the parameters to optimize your learning.
  - zelphirkalt 8mo ago
    To me it sounds like an incredible speed to learn even 10 Mandarin words per day, let alone 20. So extreme, that I must wonder, what definition of "Mandarin words" and what definition of "learned" you are using, when you are writing that, or, that you are an extreme outlier in terms of memorizing visual information. For me really learning a word means: (1) Knowing how to say it. (2) Knowing how to write it, meaning the Chinese characters, of course. (3) Still remembering (1) and (2) after at least a month. (4) Being able to actually use the word correctly. Do you really learn 20 words properly under those definitions? If so, then respect. I consider myself to have quite a good memory for visual information, but if I don't try to memorize 20 words as a full-time activity on that day, and write them hundreds of times, I am fairly sure they won't stick for long, maybe not even until the next day. Some obviously will, and some have good explanations why the characters look as they do, but others don't, and feel arbitrarily constructed.
- bigDinosaur 8mo ago
  https://www.supermemo.com/en/blog/supermemo-is-better-than-fsrs-by-far https://www.supermemo.com/en/blog/supermemo-is-better-than-f... seems to suggest that yes, it is a major improvement over SM-2, and given how critical they are of FSRS I'm happy to believe them. SM-2 to my understanding is basically the simplest possible spaced repetition algorithm - I think something like 'double the review interval if easy, otherwise multiply by some difficulty factor to reduce this interval depending on which button was clicked'. That said, even SM-2 is probably vastly superior to just not doing SRS at all.
  - asymmetric 8mo ago
    Isn’t the linked article claiming that SM is superior to FSRS?
    - bigDinosaur 8mo ago
      SM is claiming that the latest versions of the SM algorithm (namely SM-19) are vastly superior to FSRS (maybe it is?). They state in contrast: We do not dismiss the work behind FSRS. It is a commendable open-source effort and a marked improvement over ancient algorithms like SM-2. For context, Anki uses SM-2's algorithm (albeit apparently heavily modified for various special cases) if FSRS is not enabled.
- zelphirkalt 8mo ago
  I think many learners are walking into a trap of thinking, if they just change their SPS algorithm, they will magically learn more. I think they might learn a little bit more, but the biggest effect is simply due to time investment and doing the repetitions. It is good to be able to practice known words less often, obviously, but that can be achieved using a very basic system already. If changing their SPS or the promises about an SPS motivate the learner, then great, they're putting in the work and time to learn, but I doubt that the effect of changing the SPS is as large as some people claim. For example I used a tool that supposedly uses FSPS, but it did have a low maximum for the duration you don't have to practice a word, and no way for me to "ban" a word, so that it asks me in 6 months or something, and simple words kept coming back, especially after not learning for a few days. I didn't make much progress using the tool, even though it had FSPS.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]

by Shank 8mo ago

SpaceManNabs 8mo ago

Is there that much of a difference?

Ifkaluva 8mo ago
As a user, it’s a HUGE difference. FSRS leads to an incredibly reduced workload.
- watwut 8mo ago
  Yes, because intervals on some cards become absurdly large (4 years after seeing the card twice) .
  - sambapa 8mo ago
    If the algorithm says so, so it is.
    - mchaver 8mo ago
      Our data in the cloud, hallowed be thy computation, your kingdom come, your will be done, on our devices as it is in the cloud. Give us today our daily feed.
      - cwnyth 8mo ago
        And forgive us for our typos, as we forgive those typo [sic] against us.
  - KPGv2 8mo ago
    This sounds like some absurd mis-optimization of parameters on your part.
saubeidl 8mo ago
Yeah, FSRS is much better. For me it was the difference between learning 10 new words of Mandarin a day and learning 20, with the same time commitment.
- apt-apt-apt-apt 8mo ago
  Does using FSRS result in less retention, due to scheduling less reviews than other systems? Or is it actually more efficient in a meaningful way by cutting out unnecessary reviews?
  - zelphirkalt 8mo ago
    The goal is of course the latter.
  - jdahlin 8mo ago
    The goal of the scheduling algorithm is to predict the optimal time for when you need to review your card again. FSRS has a bunch of parameters tja you can customize based on previous learning attempts, usually a few 100 cards is enough to adapt to your own learning abilities, but in current Anki versions you need to manually update the parameters to optimize your learning.
- zelphirkalt 8mo ago
  To me it sounds like an incredible speed to learn even 10 Mandarin words per day, let alone 20. So extreme, that I must wonder, what definition of "Mandarin words" and what definition of "learned" you are using, when you are writing that, or, that you are an extreme outlier in terms of memorizing visual information. For me really learning a word means: (1) Knowing how to say it. (2) Knowing how to write it, meaning the Chinese characters, of course. (3) Still remembering (1) and (2) after at least a month. (4) Being able to actually use the word correctly. Do you really learn 20 words properly under those definitions? If so, then respect. I consider myself to have quite a good memory for visual information, but if I don't try to memorize 20 words as a full-time activity on that day, and write them hundreds of times, I am fairly sure they won't stick for long, maybe not even until the next day. Some obviously will, and some have good explanations why the characters look as they do, but others don't, and feel arbitrarily constructed.
bigDinosaur 8mo ago
https://www.supermemo.com/en/blog/supermemo-is-better-than-fsrs-by-far https://www.supermemo.com/en/blog/supermemo-is-better-than-f... seems to suggest that yes, it is a major improvement over SM-2, and given how critical they are of FSRS I'm happy to believe them. SM-2 to my understanding is basically the simplest possible spaced repetition algorithm - I think something like 'double the review interval if easy, otherwise multiply by some difficulty factor to reduce this interval depending on which button was clicked'. That said, even SM-2 is probably vastly superior to just not doing SRS at all.
- asymmetric 8mo ago
  Isn’t the linked article claiming that SM is superior to FSRS?
  - bigDinosaur 8mo ago
    SM is claiming that the latest versions of the SM algorithm (namely SM-19) are vastly superior to FSRS (maybe it is?). They state in contrast: We do not dismiss the work behind FSRS. It is a commendable open-source effort and a marked improvement over ancient algorithms like SM-2. For context, Anki uses SM-2's algorithm (albeit apparently heavily modified for various special cases) if FSRS is not enabled.
zelphirkalt 8mo ago
I think many learners are walking into a trap of thinking, if they just change their SPS algorithm, they will magically learn more. I think they might learn a little bit more, but the biggest effect is simply due to time investment and doing the repetitions. It is good to be able to practice known words less often, obviously, but that can be achieved using a very basic system already. If changing their SPS or the promises about an SPS motivate the learner, then great, they're putting in the work and time to learn, but I doubt that the effect of changing the SPS is as large as some people claim. For example I used a tool that supposedly uses FSPS, but it did have a low maximum for the duration you don't have to practice a word, and no way for me to "ban" a word, so that it asks me in 6 months or something, and simple words kept coming back, especially after not learning for a few days. I didn't make much progress using the tool, even though it had FSPS.

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]