3 ms·

Certainly not gas or oil, which are still cheaper to heat with than heat pumps.

by manmal 9mo ago

tempestn 9mo ago
Modern heat pumps are cheaper than oil for heating just about everywhere. They're cheaper than natural gas in most places, unless electricity prices where you live are particularly high.
- zobzu 9mo ago
  in CA my natural gas is far cheaper than the heat pump sadly
  - yurishimo 9mo ago
    In western europe today, I spend €10+ per day to heat my home (17 degrees mind you) with a gas powered boiler for radiators. I can run my mini-split on 18 degrees all day for a couple of euros. I moved here from the US in 2022 right after the full scale invasion of Ukraine so natural gas prices skyrocketed overnight. I don't really understand what the aversion is to forced air climate control here other than "it's not as comfortable" which from what I've gleaned from other people is taken to mean noise/moving air/humidity. Coming from the southern US, I find all of those points to be a non-issue for me. I've slept with a fan on my entire life, so if I can shave off 50% of my heating costs for a few decibels of fan noise, sign me up!
    - manmal 9mo ago
      I don't buy your numbers. I'm in Western Europe myself, and have run those numbers multiple times. Kilowatt for kilowatt (COP adjusted) gas is always cheaper than a heat pump.
- manmal 9mo ago
  Yes, and many places have high electricity costs. And btw, those are hard to foresee, so if you make a long term investment into a heat pump that is supposed to last 20-25 years, you have no idea how electricity prices will affect you. That's obviously true for gas and oil as well. I do concede that my original point was too blanket-y. I have a heat pump btw., with COP 4.5 (below ground). Costs me EUR 2.5 - 3k per year to heat the house.
Tor3 9mo ago
Hm? Around here oil was never been in the same (low) order of magnitude. Those who installed oil heaters many decades ago regretted it quickly. And it's been illegal to use them for a couple of decades as well now. Gas has never been an option in my region, there's no infrastructure for that. We have used gas in Japan until now, but even that we'll be phasing out (I live in two places)
- darkteflon 9mo ago
  I’m in Japan too. Could you name the model you ended up going with? My heating bill in the winter is insane.
  - Tor3 9mo ago
    The model is not yet decided, we're in the finalizing stage with the building company. What we have been focusing on is a well insulated house, unlike the old one which has no insulation at all.. if we tried to heat that it would not only be extremely expensive, it's impossible to even heat the small bathroom with an electric heater. So instead you kind of get used to it. Took me a year to stop feeling like I was freezing, at 4C in the bathroom on February mornings. We have been using a gas heater (plug in the floor) in certain places on the ground floor, but we limited that as well. So, with an insulated, small house, we believe we will be able to keep the costs down, using heat pumps and heat exchangers, plus solar and battery (using the car battery).
    - darkteflon 8mo ago
      Thanks for your reply! We’re about to finally replace our windows with double-layer glass. Hoping this makes a big difference.
- manmal 9mo ago
  > Those who installed oil heaters many decades ago regretted it quickly. That really depends on the oil heater, no? You can't compare a heater from the 70s with a modern one. That's like saying I don't drive modern cars because cars in the 70s were unsafe and stank.
pjc50 9mo ago
Oil heating has usually been the most expensive way to heat in the UK, on par with resistive-electric.
- manmal 9mo ago
  That's completely wrong. Electricity (standard): 33.34 p/kWh Heating oil (gas oil): 10.54 p/kWh Kerosene: 6.20 p/kWh Mains gas: 7.68 p/kWh https://www.nottenergy.com/advice-and-tools/project-energy-cost-comparison https://www.nottenergy.com/advice-and-tools/project-energy-c...

Certainly not gas or oil, which are still cheaper to heat with than heat pumps.

by manmal 9mo ago

Certainly not gas or oil, which are still cheaper to heat with than heat pumps.

Modern heat pumps are cheaper than oil for heating just about everywhere. They're cheaper than natural gas in most places, unless electricity prices where you live are particularly high.

zobzu 9mo ago
in CA my natural gas is far cheaper than the heat pump sadly
- yurishimo 9mo ago
  In western europe today, I spend €10+ per day to heat my home (17 degrees mind you) with a gas powered boiler for radiators. I can run my mini-split on 18 degrees all day for a couple of euros. I moved here from the US in 2022 right after the full scale invasion of Ukraine so natural gas prices skyrocketed overnight. I don't really understand what the aversion is to forced air climate control here other than "it's not as comfortable" which from what I've gleaned from other people is taken to mean noise/moving air/humidity. Coming from the southern US, I find all of those points to be a non-issue for me. I've slept with a fan on my entire life, so if I can shave off 50% of my heating costs for a few decibels of fan noise, sign me up!
  - manmal 9mo ago
    I don't buy your numbers. I'm in Western Europe myself, and have run those numbers multiple times. Kilowatt for kilowatt (COP adjusted) gas is always cheaper than a heat pump.
manmal 9mo ago
Yes, and many places have high electricity costs. And btw, those are hard to foresee, so if you make a long term investment into a heat pump that is supposed to last 20-25 years, you have no idea how electricity prices will affect you. That's obviously true for gas and oil as well. I do concede that my original point was too blanket-y. I have a heat pump btw., with COP 4.5 (below ground). Costs me EUR 2.5 - 3k per year to heat the house.

Tor3 9mo ago

Hm? Around here oil was never been in the same (low) order of magnitude. Those who installed oil heaters many decades ago regretted it quickly. And it's been illegal to use them for a couple of decades as well now. Gas has never been an option in my region, there's no infrastructure for that. We have used gas in Japan until now, but even that we'll be phasing out (I live in two places)

darkteflon 9mo ago
I’m in Japan too. Could you name the model you ended up going with? My heating bill in the winter is insane.
- Tor3 9mo ago
  The model is not yet decided, we're in the finalizing stage with the building company. What we have been focusing on is a well insulated house, unlike the old one which has no insulation at all.. if we tried to heat that it would not only be extremely expensive, it's impossible to even heat the small bathroom with an electric heater. So instead you kind of get used to it. Took me a year to stop feeling like I was freezing, at 4C in the bathroom on February mornings. We have been using a gas heater (plug in the floor) in certain places on the ground floor, but we limited that as well. So, with an insulated, small house, we believe we will be able to keep the costs down, using heat pumps and heat exchangers, plus solar and battery (using the car battery).
  - darkteflon 8mo ago
    Thanks for your reply! We’re about to finally replace our windows with double-layer glass. Hoping this makes a big difference.
manmal 9mo ago
> Those who installed oil heaters many decades ago regretted it quickly. That really depends on the oil heater, no? You can't compare a heater from the 70s with a modern one. That's like saying I don't drive modern cars because cars in the 70s were unsafe and stank.

pjc50 9mo ago

Oil heating has usually been the most expensive way to heat in the UK, on par with resistive-electric.

manmal 9mo ago
That's completely wrong. Electricity (standard): 33.34 p/kWh Heating oil (gas oil): 10.54 p/kWh Kerosene: 6.20 p/kWh Mains gas: 7.68 p/kWh https://www.nottenergy.com/advice-and-tools/project-energy-cost-comparison https://www.nottenergy.com/advice-and-tools/project-energy-c...