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The indexable "world wide web" of startups, big tech brands, VC, video sites, porn and blogs about cats falling out of windows, yes. When it comes to the deep

by meaty 14y ago

The indexable "world wide web" of startups, big tech brands, VC, video sites, porn and blogs about cats falling out of windows, yes. When it comes to the deep web i.e. corporate applications, business tools etc, it's just not seen at all. These are the things that produce a lot of value and solve a lot of problems. I'd argue they are cumulatively more valuable than the above. EsEnt, AppFabric, IIS7 ARR, PowerShell cover your concerns above all of which are scriptable and automatable. When you consolidate your time across the year spent on developing a backup methodology for your server, managing updates etc, monitoring, testing, where does that leave you? I know Linux inside out (I've been a professional user on and off since 1998) and I know you hit the same number of roadblocks as windows along the way. Also your deployment model sounds odd. Do you check in your production artifacts/dlls and configuration? Do you build on your production boxes? Also your demonstration applications are tiny. A single deployment we throw out has 95Mb of release compiled DLLs across 48 assemblies... We use NHibernate and have a test harness for MySQL already so we're not bothered about SQL pricing (anyway it's still plenty affordable as our product is valuable and pays for the licensing). I was using rsync on Windows 2000 back in 2002 to sync press image libraries so that's a moot point really. Azure cuts it for the ramp up phase of your product if you factor in the above. We did a proper cost analysis.

jbrechtel 14y ago
Are you seriously claiming that Linux is "not seen at all" in the "deep web" (in-house corporate development) ? Hyperbole aside, obviously. Or am I misunderstanding you? BTW, if your experience is mostly in the UK then that might explain this viewpoint. It's much less true in the US in my experience.
mythz 14y ago
>> I'd argue they are cumulatively more valuable than the above. If you're trying to suggest Windows Enterprise applications have more cumulative value than everything else that's running on Linux than I think this is more telling of your limited world view than any kind of reality. Java ranks nearly 3x higher than .NET on the latest TIOBE Programming Community Index http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.... and that doesn't include all the other languages running on the JVM platform. In the Open Source space, .NET doesn't even make it on the top 10. How you've concluded Windows provides more cumulative value should provide great content for a MS Facts whitepaper. >> EsEnt, AppFabric, IIS7 ARR, PowerShell cover your concerns above all of which are scriptable and automatable. These options pales in comparison to what's available on Unix, which are much more popular and require much less tooling and are more scriptable. Big tooling falls down when you need to do something that's not supported out of the box. Let's identify big companies that rely on Windows? and I'll come up with a few names that host on Linux. We can start with the worlds most valuable companies and work our way down. >> Also your deployment model sounds odd. Do you check in your production artifacts/dlls and configuration? Do you build on your production boxes? We use the repos as they are on Git, every project on Git is self-hosting either in NuGet /packages or contained in the top-level /lib folder (we're moving to NuGet for all future projects). We're currently building with xbuild on our servicestack.net server but as we've recently got Mono/Windows TeamCity CI Builds for ServiceStack's projects, we'll be switching to CI deployments. Also unless it's not perfectly clear, because we deploy from Git only the delta's are pulled in each deployment, so libs that don't change aren't pulled. >> Azure cuts it for the ramp up phase of your product if you factor in the above. We did a proper cost analysis. I'm still not buying it. Maybe it makes sense for a Windows-only .NET dev team, but factoring all costs Azure would still cost us at least 11x more.
- tracker1 14y ago
  Well.. I can state that Wells Fargo Bank, Intel, and American Express all have .Net development in-house... As do a lot of other fortune 500 organizations. In fact, I'd be willing to wager that 90% of the F500 list uses Windows, Linux, .Net, Java and other development. The pissing match is moot anyhow. I will say that I feel that Windows + .Net is a much friendlier environment to develop in/with than Java. That said, the more I "get stuff done" with Node.js, the more I absolutely like it. Many small parts working together, integrating with other systems, and deployable on disparate platforms... It may not be "enterprise" and the tooling may not be there yet.. but doing with a 100-line script what takes a couple of projects in typical "enterprise" fashion is really nice. Our email spool handler is an 84 line node script. Our API service is 122 lines in Node.js (on top of some data migration scripts). That said, Mono offers a lot... You can run your EXISTING applications on new platforms with minimal retooling, and reduced licensing costs... if you already have nix environments it's less costly all around. If you're new to nix, then sticking with .Net/Windows has other advantages.
  - mythz 14y ago
    Used in conjunction with other platforms is a far cry of being cumulatively more valuable then everything else put together. But I digress. Agreed Mono does offer a lot of value, it's improved leaps and bounds since Xamarin's split from Novell, they're now well staffed and more focused on delivering their leading best-of-class products. I've witnessed tonnes of improvements to MonoDevelop since their focus on MonoTouch and OSX. From what I've seen at MonkeySpace Xamarin's got plenty more exciting announcements up their sleeve for next year. With that said, it's making a lot more sense to depend on well supported Mono-compatible libraries so you always have an easy escape option out of the expensive Windows-only cloud provider lock-ins. You'll also have the option to use any of the exciting Linux cloud initiatives on the horizons like: Google Compute Engine / OpenStack.
- meaty 14y ago
  Some comments: 1. Tiobe is a load of rubbish. Scraping the search engines doesn't give useful statistics - just a talking point. It also backs up my point about the dark web. There are huge swathes of professional software engineers who don't participate in blogs and the open source movement. Also lots of old stale information is out there clogging up the web. 2. Have you ever had to manipulate a heavily nested apache or nginx configuration file with sed/awk? (even with debian's nice sites-available/sites-enabled structure?). The only hope is to write a script to regenerate the files on demand. Chef/puppet make this easier but it's still a pain in the butt. In fact I'd say compared to appcmd, it's an absolute nightmare. I can think of many examples like this. 3. Name 20 companies that are Linux only. I can name 50 in the FTSE100 that are windows only. There is more market value in the companies below the top 100 than there are in the top 100 in most exchanges (do the stats). 4. Thanks for the build clarification. We use TeamCity as well and do integration builds from our VCS master but we publish from team city artefact drops, not from our VCS. We don't use NuGet as it only started to support dependency materialization recently.
giulianob 14y ago
I use C# w/ Windows Server for game servers but I'm in the process of migrating to Linux. Why? Because everything else I have runs Linux so managing an extra OS is a lot of overhead. And Windows Server automation is hugely painful compared to Linux. With Linux automation for example, you can go from Ansibel which is a wrapper around SSH to Chef/Puppet that are very very powerful but much more complicated. With Windows, you get crappy Chef/Puppet support and the MS automation tools (from what I've seen) are too complicated for most people. Even setting up remote Powershell access is painful compared to setting up sshd. In short, there's monetary reasons for running Mono as well.

by meaty 14y ago

jbrechtel 14y ago

Are you seriously claiming that Linux is "not seen at all" in the "deep web" (in-house corporate development) ? Hyperbole aside, obviously. Or am I misunderstanding you? BTW, if your experience is mostly in the UK then that might explain this viewpoint. It's much less true in the US in my experience.

mythz 14y ago

>> I'd argue they are cumulatively more valuable than the above. If you're trying to suggest Windows Enterprise applications have more cumulative value than everything else that's running on Linux than I think this is more telling of your limited world view than any kind of reality. Java ranks nearly 3x higher than .NET on the latest TIOBE Programming Community Index http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.... and that doesn't include all the other languages running on the JVM platform. In the Open Source space, .NET doesn't even make it on the top 10. How you've concluded Windows provides more cumulative value should provide great content for a MS Facts whitepaper. >> EsEnt, AppFabric, IIS7 ARR, PowerShell cover your concerns above all of which are scriptable and automatable. These options pales in comparison to what's available on Unix, which are much more popular and require much less tooling and are more scriptable. Big tooling falls down when you need to do something that's not supported out of the box. Let's identify big companies that rely on Windows? and I'll come up with a few names that host on Linux. We can start with the worlds most valuable companies and work our way down. >> Also your deployment model sounds odd. Do you check in your production artifacts/dlls and configuration? Do you build on your production boxes? We use the repos as they are on Git, every project on Git is self-hosting either in NuGet /packages or contained in the top-level /lib folder (we're moving to NuGet for all future projects). We're currently building with xbuild on our servicestack.net server but as we've recently got Mono/Windows TeamCity CI Builds for ServiceStack's projects, we'll be switching to CI deployments. Also unless it's not perfectly clear, because we deploy from Git only the delta's are pulled in each deployment, so libs that don't change aren't pulled. >> Azure cuts it for the ramp up phase of your product if you factor in the above. We did a proper cost analysis. I'm still not buying it. Maybe it makes sense for a Windows-only .NET dev team, but factoring all costs Azure would still cost us at least 11x more.

tracker1 14y ago
Well.. I can state that Wells Fargo Bank, Intel, and American Express all have .Net development in-house... As do a lot of other fortune 500 organizations. In fact, I'd be willing to wager that 90% of the F500 list uses Windows, Linux, .Net, Java and other development. The pissing match is moot anyhow. I will say that I feel that Windows + .Net is a much friendlier environment to develop in/with than Java. That said, the more I "get stuff done" with Node.js, the more I absolutely like it. Many small parts working together, integrating with other systems, and deployable on disparate platforms... It may not be "enterprise" and the tooling may not be there yet.. but doing with a 100-line script what takes a couple of projects in typical "enterprise" fashion is really nice. Our email spool handler is an 84 line node script. Our API service is 122 lines in Node.js (on top of some data migration scripts). That said, Mono offers a lot... You can run your EXISTING applications on new platforms with minimal retooling, and reduced licensing costs... if you already have nix environments it's less costly all around. If you're new to nix, then sticking with .Net/Windows has other advantages.
- mythz 14y ago
  Used in conjunction with other platforms is a far cry of being cumulatively more valuable then everything else put together. But I digress. Agreed Mono does offer a lot of value, it's improved leaps and bounds since Xamarin's split from Novell, they're now well staffed and more focused on delivering their leading best-of-class products. I've witnessed tonnes of improvements to MonoDevelop since their focus on MonoTouch and OSX. From what I've seen at MonkeySpace Xamarin's got plenty more exciting announcements up their sleeve for next year. With that said, it's making a lot more sense to depend on well supported Mono-compatible libraries so you always have an easy escape option out of the expensive Windows-only cloud provider lock-ins. You'll also have the option to use any of the exciting Linux cloud initiatives on the horizons like: Google Compute Engine / OpenStack.
meaty 14y ago
Some comments: 1. Tiobe is a load of rubbish. Scraping the search engines doesn't give useful statistics - just a talking point. It also backs up my point about the dark web. There are huge swathes of professional software engineers who don't participate in blogs and the open source movement. Also lots of old stale information is out there clogging up the web. 2. Have you ever had to manipulate a heavily nested apache or nginx configuration file with sed/awk? (even with debian's nice sites-available/sites-enabled structure?). The only hope is to write a script to regenerate the files on demand. Chef/puppet make this easier but it's still a pain in the butt. In fact I'd say compared to appcmd, it's an absolute nightmare. I can think of many examples like this. 3. Name 20 companies that are Linux only. I can name 50 in the FTSE100 that are windows only. There is more market value in the companies below the top 100 than there are in the top 100 in most exchanges (do the stats). 4. Thanks for the build clarification. We use TeamCity as well and do integration builds from our VCS master but we publish from team city artefact drops, not from our VCS. We don't use NuGet as it only started to support dependency materialization recently.

giulianob 14y ago

I use C# w/ Windows Server for game servers but I'm in the process of migrating to Linux. Why? Because everything else I have runs Linux so managing an extra OS is a lot of overhead. And Windows Server automation is hugely painful compared to Linux. With Linux automation for example, you can go from Ansibel which is a wrapper around SSH to Chef/Puppet that are very very powerful but much more complicated. With Windows, you get crappy Chef/Puppet support and the MS automation tools (from what I've seen) are too complicated for most people. Even setting up remote Powershell access is painful compared to setting up sshd. In short, there's monetary reasons for running Mono as well.