3 ms·

They are in conflict with each other, that's the problem. The US is only thrown in conveniently to muddy the water and as scarecrow but the aim is EU over membe

They are in conflict with each other, that's the problem. The US is only thrown in conveniently to muddy the water and as scarecrow but the aim is EU over member states in any case. > the EU (as in all the EU member states) No, it's the EU, not the member states independently as sovereign states. Note also that there is a huge difference between "European cooperation" and "EU integration". Over time the EU has taken over significant levers of sovereignty away from member states. The single currency was a very big one (hence some countries decided to stay away). Now it is pushing into another very regalian domain, which is defence. If there was a referendum in each EU country to ask the people clearly and honestly whether they were in favour of their country disappearing as sovereign state and becoming only a 'state' of a federal EU, my strong guess is that they would vote "no", but that's exactly what is happening little by little. That's my point, my problem with and fear about the EU (and of course the national governments that are in on it). Quite disappointing to read the crass insults and accusations thrown by some commenters, as well as the barrage of downvotes. Unfortunately it seems to be an usual pattern (I'm getting uncomfortable 1984 vibes more and more).

saubeidl 9mo ago
The EU is the member states. The distinction is purely in your head.
- mytailorisrich 9mo ago
  There is a huge, crucial, and obvious difference here (the EU is made of member states but a member state's sovereignty is not the same as the "EU sovereignty", very obviously), but if you can't see it (or refuse to) after what I already wrote then I am afraid that I don't have the energy to even attempt to discuss this with you...
  - saubeidl 9mo ago
    The EU is nothing more but the sum of its member states. The Venn diagram is a circle. The sovereignty of the EU is the sum of the sovereignty of its member states.
- mort96 9mo ago
  I think this is a bit unfair. The EU is a combination of the member states and institutions: the European Commission, the European Parliament, the European Council and the Council of the European Union. These bodies are made up of either people elected directly by EU citizens or by politicians from EU member countries, not dissimilar to how the federal government in the US is made up of either people elected directly by US citizens or by politicians from US member states. And just as it would be unfair to describe the US as only its member states, I believe it is unfair to describe the EU as only its member countries.
  - saubeidl 9mo ago
    The EU at its very core is international contracts between member states. All that the EU is is contracts between states. Thus, the EU itself is nothing but the member states acting from their sovereignty.
    - mort96 9mo ago
      From my perspective, the main structural difference between the EU and the US is that it's legal for a member country to leave the EU but illegal for a member state to leave the US. This is a very significant difference and means that the EU is a consensual partnership between countries while the US is not. Still, if the US instituted a legal way for a member state to secede, I do not think it would be fair to call the US "only contracts between states"; I think it would be warranted to view the federal government as its own political entity which is more than just the sum of its member states. Do you agree with my view of this hypothetical alternative US? If yes: what is the essential difference between that and the EU which makes one a political entity of its own right while the other is "just contracts between countries"? If no: why?
      - saubeidl 9mo ago
        The difference is, imo, the Constitution. Had the Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe succeeded, I would agree with your point. Since it hasn't, it's all just a bunch of treaties between countries. Yes, there is European politican entities. But they all just exist by the power of the member states instituting them. They are not (yet?) established as powers in their own right.

saubeidl 9mo ago

The EU is the member states. The distinction is purely in your head.

mytailorisrich 9mo ago
There is a huge, crucial, and obvious difference here (the EU is made of member states but a member state's sovereignty is not the same as the "EU sovereignty", very obviously), but if you can't see it (or refuse to) after what I already wrote then I am afraid that I don't have the energy to even attempt to discuss this with you...
- saubeidl 9mo ago
  The EU is nothing more but the sum of its member states. The Venn diagram is a circle. The sovereignty of the EU is the sum of the sovereignty of its member states.
mort96 9mo ago
I think this is a bit unfair. The EU is a combination of the member states and institutions: the European Commission, the European Parliament, the European Council and the Council of the European Union. These bodies are made up of either people elected directly by EU citizens or by politicians from EU member countries, not dissimilar to how the federal government in the US is made up of either people elected directly by US citizens or by politicians from US member states. And just as it would be unfair to describe the US as only its member states, I believe it is unfair to describe the EU as only its member countries.
- saubeidl 9mo ago
  The EU at its very core is international contracts between member states. All that the EU is is contracts between states. Thus, the EU itself is nothing but the member states acting from their sovereignty.
  - mort96 9mo ago
    From my perspective, the main structural difference between the EU and the US is that it's legal for a member country to leave the EU but illegal for a member state to leave the US. This is a very significant difference and means that the EU is a consensual partnership between countries while the US is not. Still, if the US instituted a legal way for a member state to secede, I do not think it would be fair to call the US "only contracts between states"; I think it would be warranted to view the federal government as its own political entity which is more than just the sum of its member states. Do you agree with my view of this hypothetical alternative US? If yes: what is the essential difference between that and the EU which makes one a political entity of its own right while the other is "just contracts between countries"? If no: why?
    - saubeidl 9mo ago
      The difference is, imo, the Constitution. Had the Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe succeeded, I would agree with your point. Since it hasn't, it's all just a bunch of treaties between countries. Yes, there is European politican entities. But they all just exist by the power of the member states instituting them. They are not (yet?) established as powers in their own right.