3 ms·

Disagree. It is good for users of all operating systems, if Linux becomes so usable that it threatens Windows. Then Windows has to improve and we have a race to

Disagree. It is good for users of all operating systems, if Linux becomes so usable that it threatens Windows. Then Windows has to improve and we have a race to the top.

palata 9mo ago
I disagree with "usability" being one dimension. I disagree with assuming that Windows is the definition of "most usable" and "Linux should move towards Windows to get more usable". Linux is different. It's great to learn something different. I don't use Linux because I don't want to pay for Windows. I use Linux because I like how Linux is. The more Windows people join Linux and try to make it look like Windows, the more Linux starts looking like the platform I left 15 years ago.
- nilslindemann 9mo ago
  You are making a philosophy out of it, but I claim that usability is not a philosophy but an objective value. The more usable a tool is, without losing anything else, the higher it's value.
  - palata 9mo ago
    > I claim that usability is not a philosophy but an objective value Counter-example: many times, what I find more usable is what others find less usable. Unless I'm objectively stupid, usability is subjective. I hate it when people tell me "Linux should look more like Windows, because Windows is more usable. And if you don't find that Windows is more usable, then you're objectively wrong".
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]
    - nilslindemann 9mo ago
      > Counter-example: many times, what I find more usable is what others find less usable. Unless I'm objectively stupid, usability is subjective. Hard to argue with you about that, unless you get more concrete. Can you give an example for something you find more usable which others find less usable (than what?)?
      - palata 9mo ago
        Some quick examples: * I need a tiling window manager * I need vim bindings * I want CLIs as much as possible * I want config files, not Settings panels in UIs * I want to be able to build my packages from source and patch them if necessary All of those things are more usable on Linux than they are on Windows (when they actually exist on Windows).
        nilslindemann 9mo ago
        Your taste is not different regarding usability but regarding tools. Usability just means making that what you use as usable as possible: * Window managers are wisely preconfigured and the user can one-click-switch between them, like between Plugins. * Key bindings are configurable for everything (which probable is already the case) * There is a CLI <-> GUI standard. Same for config files <-> settings panels, etc. The UCI standard for chess engines comes to mind. * Installing from source is integrated. Every source code directory can be right-clicked: "compile". Every binary can be right-clicked: "modify". And that works out of the box, no programming skills required unless one wants to make changes. One can click on code locations: "Explain". Some more things come to my mind: * A "freeze" button which freezes the current state of my system bit by bit. There is a possibility to backup that to the internet for a monthly fee. No credit card required. * Every button bar can be configured, every list of something can be filter-as-you-typed. Every right-click Menu can be configured. * Linux has a global namespace/function/type library, accessible via a browser and also directly from within Linux. You dont have to read any doc except that of the used namespace/function/type. it creates binaries which follow the above standard. * There is an AI window where I can ask questions about my system. It has a well-done local default AI but there is an option to buy tokens from popular "Language Models". No tech speak. No credit card required. This is what I mean with "become so usable that you threaten windows".

Disagree. It is good for users of all operating systems, if Linux becomes so usable that it threatens Windows. Then Windows has to improve and we have a race to the top.

palata 9mo ago

I disagree with "usability" being one dimension. I disagree with assuming that Windows is the definition of "most usable" and "Linux should move towards Windows to get more usable". Linux is different. It's great to learn something different. I don't use Linux because I don't want to pay for Windows. I use Linux because I like how Linux is. The more Windows people join Linux and try to make it look like Windows, the more Linux starts looking like the platform I left 15 years ago.

nilslindemann 9mo ago
You are making a philosophy out of it, but I claim that usability is not a philosophy but an objective value. The more usable a tool is, without losing anything else, the higher it's value.
- palata 9mo ago
  > I claim that usability is not a philosophy but an objective value Counter-example: many times, what I find more usable is what others find less usable. Unless I'm objectively stupid, usability is subjective. I hate it when people tell me "Linux should look more like Windows, because Windows is more usable. And if you don't find that Windows is more usable, then you're objectively wrong".
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
  - nilslindemann 9mo ago
    > Counter-example: many times, what I find more usable is what others find less usable. Unless I'm objectively stupid, usability is subjective. Hard to argue with you about that, unless you get more concrete. Can you give an example for something you find more usable which others find less usable (than what?)?
    - palata 9mo ago
      Some quick examples: * I need a tiling window manager * I need vim bindings * I want CLIs as much as possible * I want config files, not Settings panels in UIs * I want to be able to build my packages from source and patch them if necessary All of those things are more usable on Linux than they are on Windows (when they actually exist on Windows).
      - nilslindemann 9mo ago
        Your taste is not different regarding usability but regarding tools. Usability just means making that what you use as usable as possible: * Window managers are wisely preconfigured and the user can one-click-switch between them, like between Plugins. * Key bindings are configurable for everything (which probable is already the case) * There is a CLI <-> GUI standard. Same for config files <-> settings panels, etc. The UCI standard for chess engines comes to mind. * Installing from source is integrated. Every source code directory can be right-clicked: "compile". Every binary can be right-clicked: "modify". And that works out of the box, no programming skills required unless one wants to make changes. One can click on code locations: "Explain". Some more things come to my mind: * A "freeze" button which freezes the current state of my system bit by bit. There is a possibility to backup that to the internet for a monthly fee. No credit card required. * Every button bar can be configured, every list of something can be filter-as-you-typed. Every right-click Menu can be configured. * Linux has a global namespace/function/type library, accessible via a browser and also directly from within Linux. You dont have to read any doc except that of the used namespace/function/type. it creates binaries which follow the above standard. * There is an AI window where I can ask questions about my system. It has a well-done local default AI but there is an option to buy tokens from popular "Language Models". No tech speak. No credit card required. This is what I mean with "become so usable that you threaten windows".