5 ms·

Related, TIL the US is effectively banning residential electric resistance water heaters in 2029, with heat pump water heaters being the only type that can meet

Related, TIL the US is effectively banning residential electric resistance water heaters in 2029, with heat pump water heaters being the only type that can meet the new standards. Users will see a 2-3x in cost difference and a 3 to 8 year payback on savings.

cucumber3732842 9mo ago
Is that 2-3x before or after the plumber marks it up? What an exceptionally moronic thing to ban, the market solves this naturally. Resistance heaters are 100% efficient whatever fraction of the year is heating days. So if that's 1/2 the year and the water heater can't last 16yr because of water quality the heat pump heater will never pay you back. This reminds me a lot of the time some jerks in west coast desert states convinced the feds to regulate plumbing fixtures so that eastern "we take from the river and put back in the river" municipalities that have more water than they know what to do with have to suffer through low flow everything.
- hnburnsy 9mo ago
  Heat pump water heater (hybrid/HPWH, e.g., 50–65 gallon equivalent): Unit prices range from ~$1,500–$3,000+ (most common models $2,000–$2,500), with total installed costs $2,500–$5,000 (higher if electrical upgrades or space mods needed). Average retrofit/install often lands around $3,000–$4,000.
  - sgc 9mo ago
    Electrical upgrades are almost always required, and price is more like 7k-9k around here. It's going to be seriously painful for a lot of people.
    - dashundchen 9mo ago
      If you were in the market for an resistive electric heat pump, you likely had the service for it already. A heat pump version will almost always require less power.
      - sgc 9mo ago
        My bad, read too quickly. I was thinking of the forced change over from gas water heaters, which is already happening in the California Bay Area and will only expand.
    - quickthrowman 9mo ago
      If you currently have an electric resistive water heater, a heat pump water heater with the same heating capacity will use 3-4x less power, which means you can use a much smaller circuit. A 6kW 240V EWH uses 25A, it’ll need #8 wire and a 35A or 40A breaker. An equivalent HPHW would use 1.5kW at 240V, or 6.25A. You can use #14s and a 15A breaker.
    - drhike 9mo ago
      Ehh 120v models exist. My 65 gal runs fine on a standard 20a breaker.
  - lm28469 9mo ago
    And for small households they virtually never pay for themselves before they die or need expensive maintenance... It only makes sense if you use a lot of water or if your electricity is very expensive. In my case it's even worse, with solar panels and self sufficiency they literally cannot break even
- aaaalone 9mo ago
  [dead]
- direwolf20 9mo ago
  Is the heat pump heater taking heat from inside or outside the house?
  - lm28469 9mo ago
    Depends on the model, but a lot use the air from their own room, that's why they can't be installed in small rooms. Models pulling the heat from outside are more expensive and require more labor obviously, and they don't make a lot of sense for places that are bellow 0c multiple month a year as the COP will drop to 1.x and you will most likely need extra electricity for the anti frost cycles
    - AlexandrB 9mo ago
      But dumping the waste cold air into the house when it's below 0C outside doesn't make much sense either.
      - wffurr 9mo ago
        You already dump waste hot air into your kitchen from the refrigerator during the summer. Is this much different? It does seem a little silly to have these chains of heat pumps all working in various directions. I read about "cold district heat" in a sibling comment which circulated lukewarm water to use as a heat sink or source with heat pumps. Maybe something similar could be done with a water or refrigerant loop through the house. Probably not economical to do all the plumbing though.
        bethekidyouwant 9mo ago
        A hot water heater takes much more power than a fridge
        lm28469 9mo ago
        > you already dump waste hot air into your kitchen from the refrigerator during the summer. Is this much different? Heating water is very energy intensive, fridges are a rounding error compared to water heaters
- beAbU 9mo ago
  Heat pumps are effectively more than 100% efficient fyi. You put 1000W of electricity in, you get 2500W of heat going into the water. (Numbers are only illustrative) Running cost of heat pumps for heating is much much lower than resistive heating.
pkulak 9mo ago
If you're making plans 3 years out in the US, you're a fool.
Sabinus 9mo ago
That's a Biden-Harris administration action. What are the chances that Trump deletes it as a 'Democrat/WEF climate hoax con job' as soon as he's made aware of it?
amazingman 9mo ago
This is exactly the kind of thing government is for, even though it's missing the other half: subsidies. At the very least buying heat pumps for the next 5 years should be tax deductible. Even better: a $2000 or similar rebate.
- DangitBobby 9mo ago
  That's probably exactly what will happen. Energy property - Heat pumps and biomass stoves and boilers Heat pumps that meet or exceed the CEE highest efficiency tier, not including any advanced tier, in effect at the beginning of the year when the property is installed, and biomass stoves and boilers with a thermal efficiency rating of at least 75% qualify for a credit up to $2,000 per year. Costs may include labor for installation. Qualified property includes new: Electric or natural gas heat pumps Electric or natural gas heat pump water heaters Biomass stoves and boilers https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/energy-efficient-home-improvement-credit https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/energy-efficient-home...
  - hnburnsy 9mo ago
    These are credits that only work if you have owe federal taxes and they cannot be carried forward. I've seen estimates that 40-45% of taxpayers owe 0 or close to 0.
    - mrd999 9mo ago
      Eh? If you have income you owe taxes, Uncle Sam just takes it before you even see it
      - direwolf20 9mo ago
        Federal taxes specifically.
      - JoblessWonder 9mo ago
        I think something like 25% of the population reports 0 household income. (I don't understand the implications, it was just surprising when I heard that.)
reorder9695 9mo ago
I don't know about all heat pump systems, but mine at least requires the water tank to have a resistive immersion too. If the tank temperature gets below some threshold the heat pump refuses to work and turns the immersion on instead until it's warmed up enough.
AlexandrB 9mo ago
The problem with heat pumps replacing electric heaters (in cold climates) is that the waste cold air gets dumped into the house and needs to be heated again. Generally, electric water heaters are expensive to run compared to gas ones, so people use them in places a gas heater is not possible to install (e.g. no way to vent the exhaust). This also means that the heat pump would have nowhere to vent cold air. This kind of thing is why I don't like bans like this. The specifics matter a lot.
- grigri907 9mo ago
  Your heat pump ought to be venting the cold air outside in the first place. If you're pulling the heat for your water out of your conditioned air, yeah you're in a losing battle.
elric 9mo ago
That seems like a stupid ban. Heat pump water heaters are impossible to install in many smaller dwellings, even if we're ignoring the need for large storage tanks. The only problem with resistance heaters is the large current draw to heat water for bathing. Central heating can be done at lower temperatures (as is the case with heat pumps), but bathing cannot. There are some resistance heaters with built in (electrochemical) batteries aimed at reducing peak current, but I'm assuming the ban would affect those as well...

cucumber3732842 9mo ago

Is that 2-3x before or after the plumber marks it up? What an exceptionally moronic thing to ban, the market solves this naturally. Resistance heaters are 100% efficient whatever fraction of the year is heating days. So if that's 1/2 the year and the water heater can't last 16yr because of water quality the heat pump heater will never pay you back. This reminds me a lot of the time some jerks in west coast desert states convinced the feds to regulate plumbing fixtures so that eastern "we take from the river and put back in the river" municipalities that have more water than they know what to do with have to suffer through low flow everything.

hnburnsy 9mo ago
Heat pump water heater (hybrid/HPWH, e.g., 50–65 gallon equivalent): Unit prices range from ~$1,500–$3,000+ (most common models $2,000–$2,500), with total installed costs $2,500–$5,000 (higher if electrical upgrades or space mods needed). Average retrofit/install often lands around $3,000–$4,000.
- sgc 9mo ago
  Electrical upgrades are almost always required, and price is more like 7k-9k around here. It's going to be seriously painful for a lot of people.
  - dashundchen 9mo ago
    If you were in the market for an resistive electric heat pump, you likely had the service for it already. A heat pump version will almost always require less power.
    - sgc 9mo ago
      My bad, read too quickly. I was thinking of the forced change over from gas water heaters, which is already happening in the California Bay Area and will only expand.
  - quickthrowman 9mo ago
    If you currently have an electric resistive water heater, a heat pump water heater with the same heating capacity will use 3-4x less power, which means you can use a much smaller circuit. A 6kW 240V EWH uses 25A, it’ll need #8 wire and a 35A or 40A breaker. An equivalent HPHW would use 1.5kW at 240V, or 6.25A. You can use #14s and a 15A breaker.
  - drhike 9mo ago
    Ehh 120v models exist. My 65 gal runs fine on a standard 20a breaker.
- lm28469 9mo ago
  And for small households they virtually never pay for themselves before they die or need expensive maintenance... It only makes sense if you use a lot of water or if your electricity is very expensive. In my case it's even worse, with solar panels and self sufficiency they literally cannot break even
aaaalone 9mo ago
[dead]
direwolf20 9mo ago
Is the heat pump heater taking heat from inside or outside the house?
- lm28469 9mo ago
  Depends on the model, but a lot use the air from their own room, that's why they can't be installed in small rooms. Models pulling the heat from outside are more expensive and require more labor obviously, and they don't make a lot of sense for places that are bellow 0c multiple month a year as the COP will drop to 1.x and you will most likely need extra electricity for the anti frost cycles
  - AlexandrB 9mo ago
    But dumping the waste cold air into the house when it's below 0C outside doesn't make much sense either.
    - wffurr 9mo ago
      You already dump waste hot air into your kitchen from the refrigerator during the summer. Is this much different? It does seem a little silly to have these chains of heat pumps all working in various directions. I read about "cold district heat" in a sibling comment which circulated lukewarm water to use as a heat sink or source with heat pumps. Maybe something similar could be done with a water or refrigerant loop through the house. Probably not economical to do all the plumbing though.
      - bethekidyouwant 9mo ago
        A hot water heater takes much more power than a fridge
      - lm28469 9mo ago
        > you already dump waste hot air into your kitchen from the refrigerator during the summer. Is this much different? Heating water is very energy intensive, fridges are a rounding error compared to water heaters
beAbU 9mo ago
Heat pumps are effectively more than 100% efficient fyi. You put 1000W of electricity in, you get 2500W of heat going into the water. (Numbers are only illustrative) Running cost of heat pumps for heating is much much lower than resistive heating.

pkulak 9mo ago

If you're making plans 3 years out in the US, you're a fool.

Sabinus 9mo ago

That's a Biden-Harris administration action. What are the chances that Trump deletes it as a 'Democrat/WEF climate hoax con job' as soon as he's made aware of it?

amazingman 9mo ago

This is exactly the kind of thing government is for, even though it's missing the other half: subsidies. At the very least buying heat pumps for the next 5 years should be tax deductible. Even better: a $2000 or similar rebate.

DangitBobby 9mo ago
That's probably exactly what will happen. Energy property - Heat pumps and biomass stoves and boilers Heat pumps that meet or exceed the CEE highest efficiency tier, not including any advanced tier, in effect at the beginning of the year when the property is installed, and biomass stoves and boilers with a thermal efficiency rating of at least 75% qualify for a credit up to $2,000 per year. Costs may include labor for installation. Qualified property includes new: Electric or natural gas heat pumps Electric or natural gas heat pump water heaters Biomass stoves and boilers https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/energy-efficient-home-improvement-credit https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/energy-efficient-home...
- hnburnsy 9mo ago
  These are credits that only work if you have owe federal taxes and they cannot be carried forward. I've seen estimates that 40-45% of taxpayers owe 0 or close to 0.
  - mrd999 9mo ago
    Eh? If you have income you owe taxes, Uncle Sam just takes it before you even see it
    - direwolf20 9mo ago
      Federal taxes specifically.
    - JoblessWonder 9mo ago
      I think something like 25% of the population reports 0 household income. (I don't understand the implications, it was just surprising when I heard that.)

reorder9695 9mo ago

I don't know about all heat pump systems, but mine at least requires the water tank to have a resistive immersion too. If the tank temperature gets below some threshold the heat pump refuses to work and turns the immersion on instead until it's warmed up enough.

AlexandrB 9mo ago

The problem with heat pumps replacing electric heaters (in cold climates) is that the waste cold air gets dumped into the house and needs to be heated again. Generally, electric water heaters are expensive to run compared to gas ones, so people use them in places a gas heater is not possible to install (e.g. no way to vent the exhaust). This also means that the heat pump would have nowhere to vent cold air. This kind of thing is why I don't like bans like this. The specifics matter a lot.

grigri907 9mo ago
Your heat pump ought to be venting the cold air outside in the first place. If you're pulling the heat for your water out of your conditioned air, yeah you're in a losing battle.

elric 9mo ago

That seems like a stupid ban. Heat pump water heaters are impossible to install in many smaller dwellings, even if we're ignoring the need for large storage tanks. The only problem with resistance heaters is the large current draw to heat water for bathing. Central heating can be done at lower temperatures (as is the case with heat pumps), but bathing cannot. There are some resistance heaters with built in (electrochemical) batteries aimed at reducing peak current, but I'm assuming the ban would affect those as well...