4 ms·

GNU Hurd Is "Almost There" with x86_64, SMP and ~75% of Debian Packages Building

57 points by sergiogdr 8mo ago

taylodl 8mo ago
This headline was pretty much true 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago... Don't get me wrong, I think Hurd is interesting, but I seriously doubt it's going to have a big impact on anything as it reflects the software engineering philosophies of the 1980s.
- hayleox 8mo ago
  The "75% of Debian archive builds" claim is exactly the same 7 years ago. In fact, look at this slide from the 2019 presentation: https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/roadmap_for_the_hurd/attachments/slides/3270/export/events/attachments/roadmap_for_the_hurd/slides/3270/2019_02_01_fosdem_roadmap.pdf#page=8 https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/roadmap_for_t... (page 8) It is barely distinguishable from the first slide featured in the Phoronix article from today: https://www.phoronix.net/image.php?id=2026&image=gnu_hurd_1 https://www.phoronix.net/image.php?id=2026&image=gnu_hurd_1 It seems like there has been progress on other fronts, so I'm not sure why Phoronix ran a headline focused on very old news. Interestingly, the 2018 version of the slide claims "80% of Debian archive builds"; I wonder what caused the regression. https://archive.fosdem.org/2018/schedule/event/microkernel_hurd_pci_arbiter/attachments/slides/2323/export/events/attachments/microkernel_hurd_pci_arbiter/slides/2323/2018_02_03_fosdem_pci.pdf#page=26 https://archive.fosdem.org/2018/schedule/event/microkernel_h... (page 26)
  - philipwhiuk 8mo ago
    > so I'm not sure why Phoronix ran a headline focused on very old news. It's just coverage of FOSDEM 2026 and I guess they assumed that the FOSDEM slides would show notable changes rather than the state of play.
- AtlasBarfed 8mo ago
  Another example of if llms are so good. Why isn't a gap like this closed very quickly?
  - digiown 8mo ago
    GNU projects and LLM contribs mix like water and oil.
- hgs3 8mo ago
  > reflects the software engineering philosophies of the 1980s. It has a microkernel architecture. That's already an improvement over the "modern" monolithic kernels we are stuck with today. Given Big Tech's interest in hardening security and sandboxing you'd think this would get more attention.
  - wolvoleo 8mo ago
    True but it's not exactly new. I remember Andrew Tanenbaum and Linus Torvald's heated discussions in the early 90s :) Minix featured a microkernel before linux existed.
    - pjmlp 8mo ago
      Yeah, but we are still far off making it mainstream beyond some key use cases, QNX, INTEGRITY, language runtimes on top of type 1 hypervisors, all kernel extension points being pushed into userspace across Apple,Google,Microsoft offerings, Nintendo Switch,....
      - bcrl 8mo ago
        Given the tectonic shift in priorities for Linux kernel development over the past decade, I'm willing to bet that many key developers would be open to a microkernel architecture now than ~25+ years ago. CPUs now have hardware features that reduce the overhead of MMU context changes which gets rid of a significant part of the cost of having isolated address spaces to contain code. The Meltdown and Spectre attacks really forced the security issue to the point where major performance costs to improve security became acceptable in a way that was not the case in the '90s or '00s.
mannyv 8mo ago
"Hurd Isn't Soup"
- imglorp 8mo ago
  Hurd Uses Repurposed Debian
  - wolvoleo 8mo ago
    To be fair, GNU/Linux distros like Debian lean very heavily on the GNU part. They owe a lot to the GSF and its work is highly praised. Just their kernel somehow seems to be stuck in vaporware status. Probably because a lot of developers would think "why work on this when we already have Linux" which is a fair point too.
    - imglorp 8mo ago
      I wonder if microkernels more relevant now than ever given their reduced attack surface, and also the recent availability of more cores. One big criticism from decades ago was the loss in efficiency. But what's changed since microkernels were conceived is how many processor cores are available to offload userspace drivers from the kernel. Is this a valid viewpoint? Is it time for microkernels to overtake monolithic kernels?
      - rurban 8mo ago
        They already did. There are more microkernels around than monolithic. All big CPU's use them internally, all phones use them.
sillywalk 8mo ago
Link to the actual presentation: https://fosdem.org/2026/schedule/event/7FZXHF-updates_on_gnuhurd_progress_rump_drivers_64bit_smp_software_bootstrapping/ https://fosdem.org/2026/schedule/event/7FZXHF-updates_on_gnu...
scoperesolution 8mo ago
Hah! It's been almost there for over a decade...
- ja27 8mo ago
  I remember talking about waiting for it to be ready in 1991.
- gbraad 8mo ago
  Make that plural: decades
jethronethro 8mo ago
Please let me know what it is "there". Then I'll start caring. Until then ...
acheron 8mo ago
While I laughed at the headline, it also fondly reminds me of reading Slashdot in the late 90s-early 00s, back before the Internet and programming and computers had all gone to shit. Good luck guys. At least working on this for decades is less damaging to the world than anything people do at Google and Facebook.
- tonfreed 8mo ago
  I always liked reading about it in uni in the mid-late 00s. It made me feel smart in my OS tutorials when I could rattle off all the design choices and how they differed from Linux and Windows
zeruch 8mo ago
Hurd is long past ever being anything but a pet project of RMS and his familiars.
hulitu 8mo ago
X11 ?

57 points by sergiogdr 8mo ago

This headline was pretty much true 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago... Don't get me wrong, I think Hurd is interesting, but I seriously doubt it's going to have a big impact on anything as it reflects the software engineering philosophies of the 1980s.

hayleox 8mo ago
The "75% of Debian archive builds" claim is exactly the same 7 years ago. In fact, look at this slide from the 2019 presentation: https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/roadmap_for_the_hurd/attachments/slides/3270/export/events/attachments/roadmap_for_the_hurd/slides/3270/2019_02_01_fosdem_roadmap.pdf#page=8 https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/roadmap_for_t... (page 8) It is barely distinguishable from the first slide featured in the Phoronix article from today: https://www.phoronix.net/image.php?id=2026&image=gnu_hurd_1 https://www.phoronix.net/image.php?id=2026&image=gnu_hurd_1 It seems like there has been progress on other fronts, so I'm not sure why Phoronix ran a headline focused on very old news. Interestingly, the 2018 version of the slide claims "80% of Debian archive builds"; I wonder what caused the regression. https://archive.fosdem.org/2018/schedule/event/microkernel_hurd_pci_arbiter/attachments/slides/2323/export/events/attachments/microkernel_hurd_pci_arbiter/slides/2323/2018_02_03_fosdem_pci.pdf#page=26 https://archive.fosdem.org/2018/schedule/event/microkernel_h... (page 26)
- philipwhiuk 8mo ago
  > so I'm not sure why Phoronix ran a headline focused on very old news. It's just coverage of FOSDEM 2026 and I guess they assumed that the FOSDEM slides would show notable changes rather than the state of play.
AtlasBarfed 8mo ago
Another example of if llms are so good. Why isn't a gap like this closed very quickly?
- digiown 8mo ago
  GNU projects and LLM contribs mix like water and oil.
hgs3 8mo ago
> reflects the software engineering philosophies of the 1980s. It has a microkernel architecture. That's already an improvement over the "modern" monolithic kernels we are stuck with today. Given Big Tech's interest in hardening security and sandboxing you'd think this would get more attention.
- wolvoleo 8mo ago
  True but it's not exactly new. I remember Andrew Tanenbaum and Linus Torvald's heated discussions in the early 90s :) Minix featured a microkernel before linux existed.
  - pjmlp 8mo ago
    Yeah, but we are still far off making it mainstream beyond some key use cases, QNX, INTEGRITY, language runtimes on top of type 1 hypervisors, all kernel extension points being pushed into userspace across Apple,Google,Microsoft offerings, Nintendo Switch,....
    - bcrl 8mo ago
      Given the tectonic shift in priorities for Linux kernel development over the past decade, I'm willing to bet that many key developers would be open to a microkernel architecture now than ~25+ years ago. CPUs now have hardware features that reduce the overhead of MMU context changes which gets rid of a significant part of the cost of having isolated address spaces to contain code. The Meltdown and Spectre attacks really forced the security issue to the point where major performance costs to improve security became acceptable in a way that was not the case in the '90s or '00s.

mannyv 8mo ago

"Hurd Isn't Soup"

imglorp 8mo ago
Hurd Uses Repurposed Debian
- wolvoleo 8mo ago
  To be fair, GNU/Linux distros like Debian lean very heavily on the GNU part. They owe a lot to the GSF and its work is highly praised. Just their kernel somehow seems to be stuck in vaporware status. Probably because a lot of developers would think "why work on this when we already have Linux" which is a fair point too.
  - imglorp 8mo ago
    I wonder if microkernels more relevant now than ever given their reduced attack surface, and also the recent availability of more cores. One big criticism from decades ago was the loss in efficiency. But what's changed since microkernels were conceived is how many processor cores are available to offload userspace drivers from the kernel. Is this a valid viewpoint? Is it time for microkernels to overtake monolithic kernels?
    - rurban 8mo ago
      They already did. There are more microkernels around than monolithic. All big CPU's use them internally, all phones use them.

sillywalk 8mo ago

Link to the actual presentation: https://fosdem.org/2026/schedule/event/7FZXHF-updates_on_gnuhurd_progress_rump_drivers_64bit_smp_software_bootstrapping/ https://fosdem.org/2026/schedule/event/7FZXHF-updates_on_gnu...

scoperesolution 8mo ago

Hah! It's been almost there for over a decade...

ja27 8mo ago
I remember talking about waiting for it to be ready in 1991.
gbraad 8mo ago
Make that plural: decades

jethronethro 8mo ago

Please let me know what it is "there". Then I'll start caring. Until then ...

acheron 8mo ago

While I laughed at the headline, it also fondly reminds me of reading Slashdot in the late 90s-early 00s, back before the Internet and programming and computers had all gone to shit. Good luck guys. At least working on this for decades is less damaging to the world than anything people do at Google and Facebook.

tonfreed 8mo ago
I always liked reading about it in uni in the mid-late 00s. It made me feel smart in my OS tutorials when I could rattle off all the design choices and how they differed from Linux and Windows

zeruch 8mo ago

Hurd is long past ever being anything but a pet project of RMS and his familiars.

hulitu 8mo ago

X11 ?