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I’ve had the pleasure of managing a wolf. Respectfully, if that’s your mindset then I think the problem lies with you and not with the manager. > good work do

by maccard 9mo ago

I’ve had the pleasure of managing a wolf. Respectfully, if that’s your mindset then I think the problem lies with you and not with the manager. > good work does not speak for itself, it needs a shitload of people to speak for it The absolute best way to get a shitload of people to speak for it is to get a shitload of people to use it. The best way to get them to use it is to make it _so good_ they use it naturally. Using the test framework from the article as an example - a period of time passed between the meeting and the work actually being recognised. The manager clearly gave the right feedback to keep working on it rather than “I’m not sure - your other thing is quite important too”. The sign of a good wolf is someone who can tell the difference between “this isn’t a good idea” and “there’s a process to be followed to find out if there’s a good idea”. Ignoring the first one is suicide, but ignoring the second one is what makes you succeed.

class3shock 9mo ago
[flagged]
- maccard 9mo ago
  No need to be like that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. Someone comes with an idea? Smile and nod, because ideas are worth the paper they’re printed on. If someone comes to me with a prototype of something that I think is jaw droppinly good, depends on what it is. Internal tool? Ask them what their coworkers think of it. Internal facing admin/feature? Same. User facing feature? Ask them what they think the next step is. The goal is, as you put it, to get everyone on the team trying to tell me it’s a good idea not just one person.
  - class3shock 9mo ago
    Your initial response included this: >Respectfully, if that’s your mindset then I think the problem lies with you and not with the manager. Adding "respectfully" to a sentence that says, "you are wrong and the problem is you", does not make it respectful. You could have simply left it out and your comment would have provided the same content. I'm fine being a kettle but don't pretend you are not a pot. To get back on topic: So you would: - talk to team mates - ask for next steps And then what? You seem to want to avoid saying you would do anything because that goes against the premise of getting out of the way. But if an idea is brought to you that is jaw droppingly good, are you just going to ask some basic questions and do nothing? Or are you going to support it? edit: for formatting
    - maccard 9mo ago
      The point of saying respectfully was, just like my reply on how I’d handle the scenario you posed, to be gentle about it. > and then what You’re missing the point. My job as a manager isn’t to tell this person “wow, good job, let me go organise a presentation to <pointy haired boss> and we can get you 3 engineers working on it and get it added to your sprint work”. > you seem to want to avoid saying you would do anything because that goes against the premise of getting out of the way. Because getting out of the way _is the point_ and the action I’m taking. The “wolf” doesn’t need me to champion them, they need me to not be in the way. > if an idea is brought to you that is jaw droppingly good are you just You didn’t ask me what I’d do if they brought me something that I thought was dumb, misguided or not worth doing. And the answer to that is “get in the way”. I would ask them why they think this is a good idea, is it likely to benefit the team/org/product/business, is it a better thing to do than their current project, should we pitch it to the team. As a manager your job isn’t to make your ICs successes happen, it’s to balance the project/company needs with the opportunities for the individuals. My job isn’t to champion someone’s project. I’m not a PM or an assistant to organise meeting. If someone does something so good, then I won’t have a choice but to make sure that they have the space to keep doing it, but if they do something that’s as good as the 15 other things that are going on, I’ll get it prioritised with the rest of the stuff that’s going on.
      - class3shock 9mo ago
        > You’re missing the point. One of us is > My job as a manager isn’t to tell this person “wow, good job, let me go organise a presentation to <pointy haired boss> and we can get you 3 engineers working on it and get it added to your sprint work”. If you see something of extreme value it is not your job to allocate time and resources to it? > Because getting out of the way _is the point_ and the action I’m taking. The “wolf” doesn’t need me to champion them, they need me to not be in the way. And my point is in real life leaderships job is not to "get out of the way" of good ideas or people that get things done, it is to champion them. > You didn’t ask me what I’d do if they brought me something that I thought was dumb, misguided or not worth doing. And the answer to that is “get in the way”. I would ask them why they think this is a good idea, is it likely to benefit the team/org/product/business, is it a better thing to do than their current project, should we pitch it to the team. First, why would I ask? Is is that unexpected that you would "get in the way" of bad ideas? And let me get this straight, a bad idea comes your way, you do something, a good idea, you do nothing? > As a manager your job isn’t to make your ICs successes happen, it’s to balance the project/company needs with the opportunities for the individuals. My job isn’t to champion someone’s project. I’m not a PM or an assistant to organise meeting. That is your job! Their success is your companies success! I do not understand the line you are trying to draw here. Your job is not to champion "someones" project, it is (among other things) to champion amazing projects that you think are jaw droppingly good. > If someone does something so good, then I won’t have a choice but to make sure that they have the space to keep doing it, but if they do something that’s as good as the 15 other things that are going on, I’ll get it prioritised with the rest of the stuff that’s going on. So at the end of all of that, what it boils down to is that you would do something? We're going to call it "making space" but I feel like that means it's at the top of a list of things you are making sure happen yes? If you want to keep cutting hairs you can, I will keep supporting people who do good work, no matter how self propelling they are. So far it's worked well for me and them but ymmv.
  - subscribed 9mo ago
    I think you forgot to follow these guidelines in your previous response. You came off very dismissive and went straight to "you're the problem" interpretation.
    - maccard 9mo ago
      Re-reading, you're right. I meant to suggest that the comment I replied to should look inwards.
MrDarcy 9mo ago
The best wolves I know define their own process to find out if the idea is good and ignore all externally imposed processes that get in their way.

by maccard 9mo ago

class3shock 9mo ago

[flagged]

maccard 9mo ago
No need to be like that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. Someone comes with an idea? Smile and nod, because ideas are worth the paper they’re printed on. If someone comes to me with a prototype of something that I think is jaw droppinly good, depends on what it is. Internal tool? Ask them what their coworkers think of it. Internal facing admin/feature? Same. User facing feature? Ask them what they think the next step is. The goal is, as you put it, to get everyone on the team trying to tell me it’s a good idea not just one person.
- class3shock 9mo ago
  Your initial response included this: >Respectfully, if that’s your mindset then I think the problem lies with you and not with the manager. Adding "respectfully" to a sentence that says, "you are wrong and the problem is you", does not make it respectful. You could have simply left it out and your comment would have provided the same content. I'm fine being a kettle but don't pretend you are not a pot. To get back on topic: So you would: - talk to team mates - ask for next steps And then what? You seem to want to avoid saying you would do anything because that goes against the premise of getting out of the way. But if an idea is brought to you that is jaw droppingly good, are you just going to ask some basic questions and do nothing? Or are you going to support it? edit: for formatting
  - maccard 9mo ago
    The point of saying respectfully was, just like my reply on how I’d handle the scenario you posed, to be gentle about it. > and then what You’re missing the point. My job as a manager isn’t to tell this person “wow, good job, let me go organise a presentation to <pointy haired boss> and we can get you 3 engineers working on it and get it added to your sprint work”. > you seem to want to avoid saying you would do anything because that goes against the premise of getting out of the way. Because getting out of the way _is the point_ and the action I’m taking. The “wolf” doesn’t need me to champion them, they need me to not be in the way. > if an idea is brought to you that is jaw droppingly good are you just You didn’t ask me what I’d do if they brought me something that I thought was dumb, misguided or not worth doing. And the answer to that is “get in the way”. I would ask them why they think this is a good idea, is it likely to benefit the team/org/product/business, is it a better thing to do than their current project, should we pitch it to the team. As a manager your job isn’t to make your ICs successes happen, it’s to balance the project/company needs with the opportunities for the individuals. My job isn’t to champion someone’s project. I’m not a PM or an assistant to organise meeting. If someone does something so good, then I won’t have a choice but to make sure that they have the space to keep doing it, but if they do something that’s as good as the 15 other things that are going on, I’ll get it prioritised with the rest of the stuff that’s going on.
    - class3shock 9mo ago
      > You’re missing the point. One of us is > My job as a manager isn’t to tell this person “wow, good job, let me go organise a presentation to <pointy haired boss> and we can get you 3 engineers working on it and get it added to your sprint work”. If you see something of extreme value it is not your job to allocate time and resources to it? > Because getting out of the way _is the point_ and the action I’m taking. The “wolf” doesn’t need me to champion them, they need me to not be in the way. And my point is in real life leaderships job is not to "get out of the way" of good ideas or people that get things done, it is to champion them. > You didn’t ask me what I’d do if they brought me something that I thought was dumb, misguided or not worth doing. And the answer to that is “get in the way”. I would ask them why they think this is a good idea, is it likely to benefit the team/org/product/business, is it a better thing to do than their current project, should we pitch it to the team. First, why would I ask? Is is that unexpected that you would "get in the way" of bad ideas? And let me get this straight, a bad idea comes your way, you do something, a good idea, you do nothing? > As a manager your job isn’t to make your ICs successes happen, it’s to balance the project/company needs with the opportunities for the individuals. My job isn’t to champion someone’s project. I’m not a PM or an assistant to organise meeting. That is your job! Their success is your companies success! I do not understand the line you are trying to draw here. Your job is not to champion "someones" project, it is (among other things) to champion amazing projects that you think are jaw droppingly good. > If someone does something so good, then I won’t have a choice but to make sure that they have the space to keep doing it, but if they do something that’s as good as the 15 other things that are going on, I’ll get it prioritised with the rest of the stuff that’s going on. So at the end of all of that, what it boils down to is that you would do something? We're going to call it "making space" but I feel like that means it's at the top of a list of things you are making sure happen yes? If you want to keep cutting hairs you can, I will keep supporting people who do good work, no matter how self propelling they are. So far it's worked well for me and them but ymmv.
- subscribed 9mo ago
  I think you forgot to follow these guidelines in your previous response. You came off very dismissive and went straight to "you're the problem" interpretation.
  - maccard 9mo ago
    Re-reading, you're right. I meant to suggest that the comment I replied to should look inwards.

MrDarcy 9mo ago

The best wolves I know define their own process to find out if the idea is good and ignore all externally imposed processes that get in their way.