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His logic for staying "out of the way" is: "The work was going to be successful without me; he’s a Wolf." This is the biggest pile of crap I have ever heard.

His logic for staying "out of the way" is: "The work was going to be successful without me; he’s a Wolf." This is the biggest pile of crap I have ever heard. Projects and ideas being thought up by "wolves" that are incredible so often die because of lack of support from management. If I talked to a senior leader about an idea and they thought it was jaw droppingly good, and their only resulting action was to tell my boss, "oh yeah, that thing x is working is interesting", during a prescheduled meeting, I would never have faith in that person again. Good work does not speak for itself, it needs a shitload of people to speak for it. The most capable "1000x" engineer in the world can never achieve anything if someone better at talking has the mic. edit: spelling

maccard 8mo ago
I’ve had the pleasure of managing a wolf. Respectfully, if that’s your mindset then I think the problem lies with you and not with the manager. > good work does not speak for itself, it needs a shitload of people to speak for it The absolute best way to get a shitload of people to speak for it is to get a shitload of people to use it. The best way to get them to use it is to make it _so good_ they use it naturally. Using the test framework from the article as an example - a period of time passed between the meeting and the work actually being recognised. The manager clearly gave the right feedback to keep working on it rather than “I’m not sure - your other thing is quite important too”. The sign of a good wolf is someone who can tell the difference between “this isn’t a good idea” and “there’s a process to be followed to find out if there’s a good idea”. Ignoring the first one is suicide, but ignoring the second one is what makes you succeed.
- class3shock 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - maccard 8mo ago
    No need to be like that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. Someone comes with an idea? Smile and nod, because ideas are worth the paper they’re printed on. If someone comes to me with a prototype of something that I think is jaw droppinly good, depends on what it is. Internal tool? Ask them what their coworkers think of it. Internal facing admin/feature? Same. User facing feature? Ask them what they think the next step is. The goal is, as you put it, to get everyone on the team trying to tell me it’s a good idea not just one person.
    - class3shock 8mo ago
      Your initial response included this: >Respectfully, if that’s your mindset then I think the problem lies with you and not with the manager. Adding "respectfully" to a sentence that says, "you are wrong and the problem is you", does not make it respectful. You could have simply left it out and your comment would have provided the same content. I'm fine being a kettle but don't pretend you are not a pot. To get back on topic: So you would: - talk to team mates - ask for next steps And then what? You seem to want to avoid saying you would do anything because that goes against the premise of getting out of the way. But if an idea is brought to you that is jaw droppingly good, are you just going to ask some basic questions and do nothing? Or are you going to support it? edit: for formatting
      - maccard 8mo ago
        The point of saying respectfully was, just like my reply on how I’d handle the scenario you posed, to be gentle about it. > and then what You’re missing the point. My job as a manager isn’t to tell this person “wow, good job, let me go organise a presentation to <pointy haired boss> and we can get you 3 engineers working on it and get it added to your sprint work”. > you seem to want to avoid saying you would do anything because that goes against the premise of getting out of the way. Because getting out of the way _is the point_ and the action I’m taking. The “wolf” doesn’t need me to champion them, they need me to not be in the way. > if an idea is brought to you that is jaw droppingly good are you just You didn’t ask me what I’d do if they brought me something that I thought was dumb, misguided or not worth doing. And the answer to that is “get in the way”. I would ask them why they think this is a good idea, is it likely to benefit the team/org/product/business, is it a better thing to do than their current project, should we pitch it to the team. As a manager your job isn’t to make your ICs successes happen, it’s to balance the project/company needs with the opportunities for the individuals. My job isn’t to champion someone’s project. I’m not a PM or an assistant to organise meeting. If someone does something so good, then I won’t have a choice but to make sure that they have the space to keep doing it, but if they do something that’s as good as the 15 other things that are going on, I’ll get it prioritised with the rest of the stuff that’s going on.
- MrDarcy 8mo ago
  The best wolves I know define their own process to find out if the idea is good and ignore all externally imposed processes that get in their way.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
MrDarcy 8mo ago
The wolf and Rands are next level. > Good work does not speak for itself, it needs a shitload of people to speak for it. Good work does speak for itself. The work speaks directly to other like minded engineers who "get it" and spread the word. Nobody in authority needs to do any selling or mandating for the kind of work and the kind of person Rands is talking about here.
- class3shock 8mo ago
  Have you never seen a good project or idea, that every engineer who saw it thought was awesome, die because it wasn't sold well to authority? Authority may not have to sell or mandate for that person to get their work done but supporting good ideas and effective people is what authority should be doing.
  - MrDarcy 8mo ago
    No I haven’t. I’ve also deliberately avoided the types of places where that happens throughout my entire career. Those types of ideas and projects have no need for the approval of authority. They are their own authority. If a person in authority ends such a project or idea then the engineering culture at that organization is so completely broken the best path is to leave.
    - class3shock 8mo ago
      Understood, I think we are coming from different environments. Edit: I wish I had access to ones more like yours.
pseudohadamard 8mo ago
It's not the biggest pile of crap, I'd say it's... let's see... currently the 27th biggest, but that's subject to change since I have several meetings coming up this week.

maccard 8mo ago

I’ve had the pleasure of managing a wolf. Respectfully, if that’s your mindset then I think the problem lies with you and not with the manager. > good work does not speak for itself, it needs a shitload of people to speak for it The absolute best way to get a shitload of people to speak for it is to get a shitload of people to use it. The best way to get them to use it is to make it _so good_ they use it naturally. Using the test framework from the article as an example - a period of time passed between the meeting and the work actually being recognised. The manager clearly gave the right feedback to keep working on it rather than “I’m not sure - your other thing is quite important too”. The sign of a good wolf is someone who can tell the difference between “this isn’t a good idea” and “there’s a process to be followed to find out if there’s a good idea”. Ignoring the first one is suicide, but ignoring the second one is what makes you succeed.

class3shock 8mo ago
[flagged]
- maccard 8mo ago
  No need to be like that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. Someone comes with an idea? Smile and nod, because ideas are worth the paper they’re printed on. If someone comes to me with a prototype of something that I think is jaw droppinly good, depends on what it is. Internal tool? Ask them what their coworkers think of it. Internal facing admin/feature? Same. User facing feature? Ask them what they think the next step is. The goal is, as you put it, to get everyone on the team trying to tell me it’s a good idea not just one person.
  - class3shock 8mo ago
    Your initial response included this: >Respectfully, if that’s your mindset then I think the problem lies with you and not with the manager. Adding "respectfully" to a sentence that says, "you are wrong and the problem is you", does not make it respectful. You could have simply left it out and your comment would have provided the same content. I'm fine being a kettle but don't pretend you are not a pot. To get back on topic: So you would: - talk to team mates - ask for next steps And then what? You seem to want to avoid saying you would do anything because that goes against the premise of getting out of the way. But if an idea is brought to you that is jaw droppingly good, are you just going to ask some basic questions and do nothing? Or are you going to support it? edit: for formatting
    - maccard 8mo ago
      The point of saying respectfully was, just like my reply on how I’d handle the scenario you posed, to be gentle about it. > and then what You’re missing the point. My job as a manager isn’t to tell this person “wow, good job, let me go organise a presentation to <pointy haired boss> and we can get you 3 engineers working on it and get it added to your sprint work”. > you seem to want to avoid saying you would do anything because that goes against the premise of getting out of the way. Because getting out of the way _is the point_ and the action I’m taking. The “wolf” doesn’t need me to champion them, they need me to not be in the way. > if an idea is brought to you that is jaw droppingly good are you just You didn’t ask me what I’d do if they brought me something that I thought was dumb, misguided or not worth doing. And the answer to that is “get in the way”. I would ask them why they think this is a good idea, is it likely to benefit the team/org/product/business, is it a better thing to do than their current project, should we pitch it to the team. As a manager your job isn’t to make your ICs successes happen, it’s to balance the project/company needs with the opportunities for the individuals. My job isn’t to champion someone’s project. I’m not a PM or an assistant to organise meeting. If someone does something so good, then I won’t have a choice but to make sure that they have the space to keep doing it, but if they do something that’s as good as the 15 other things that are going on, I’ll get it prioritised with the rest of the stuff that’s going on.
MrDarcy 8mo ago
The best wolves I know define their own process to find out if the idea is good and ignore all externally imposed processes that get in their way.

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]

MrDarcy 8mo ago

The wolf and Rands are next level. > Good work does not speak for itself, it needs a shitload of people to speak for it. Good work does speak for itself. The work speaks directly to other like minded engineers who "get it" and spread the word. Nobody in authority needs to do any selling or mandating for the kind of work and the kind of person Rands is talking about here.

class3shock 8mo ago
Have you never seen a good project or idea, that every engineer who saw it thought was awesome, die because it wasn't sold well to authority? Authority may not have to sell or mandate for that person to get their work done but supporting good ideas and effective people is what authority should be doing.
- MrDarcy 8mo ago
  No I haven’t. I’ve also deliberately avoided the types of places where that happens throughout my entire career. Those types of ideas and projects have no need for the approval of authority. They are their own authority. If a person in authority ends such a project or idea then the engineering culture at that organization is so completely broken the best path is to leave.
  - class3shock 8mo ago
    Understood, I think we are coming from different environments. Edit: I wish I had access to ones more like yours.

pseudohadamard 8mo ago

It's not the biggest pile of crap, I'd say it's... let's see... currently the 27th biggest, but that's subject to change since I have several meetings coming up this week.