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If we're going to be concerned about any language languishing due to a lack of support... like, I don't think people are going to put "Apple dropping support" a

If we're going to be concerned about any language languishing due to a lack of support... like, I don't think people are going to put "Apple dropping support" as anywhere near their shortlist. Rust has a higher risk of losing support.

kibwen 9mo ago
Apple was the primary and only major sponsor of Objective-C, used it as the core foundation of their entire platform, and dropped it like a stone with little warning or ceremony. Yes, being tied so closely to Apple is an existential risk for Swift. One need only look at the quality and trajectory of MacOS to see that Apple isn't a software company, let alone a company that cares about developer experience (Xcode, anyone?). As far as modern Apple is concerned, the primary benefit of Swift is that it produces a tiny bit extra lock-in for iOS apps, by making cross-platform development more difficult.
- j3th9n 9mo ago
  Such bullshit, macOS is the best OS for power users.
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
  - kibwen 9mo ago
    MacOS was only the best OS for power users between 1994 and 2008, at which point they shifted to x86.
    - j3th9n 9mo ago
      And it still is the best OS for power users.
  - bigyabai 9mo ago
    Power users of Subway Surfers, maybe. Modern macOS is a tragedy: https://eclecticlight.co/2021/08/12/is-apple-keeping-its-promises-over-online-ocsp-certificate-checks/ https://eclecticlight.co/2021/08/12/is-apple-keeping-its-pro...
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]
    - j3th9n 9mo ago
      Dude, this is some article from 5 years ago.
      - saagarjha 9mo ago
        They still didn’t fix it, so
- st3fan 9mo ago
  "and dropped it like a stone with little warning or ceremony" What?! This is complete nonsense. Swift was introduced 11 (!) years ago and it was clear from day one that it was going to be the future. Every single year since the introduction there were clear messages and hints in documentation and WWDC that Swift is in and Objective-C will _eventually_ be out. Little warning? Maybe if you kept your eyes closed the past 11 years. And do not forget that today you can still write apps in Objective-C.
  - kibwen 9mo ago
    Whether or not Apple still has legacy pieces in Objective-C or still allows you to write apps in it is not the issue. The point here is that Apple shadow-dropped Swift and shifted essentially all of its development priority away from Objective-C in a matter of months.
    - st3fan 9mo ago
      I think that is a pretty inaccurate description of what happened the past 11 years.
      - kibwen 9mo ago
        I'm old enough to remember when Objective-C was a real and thriving (if niche) language. I remember all the buzz when automatic reference counting was the next big thing, pushed heavily by Apple and taking center stage at WWDC. And since the year Swift came out, Objective-C has joined Cobol in the category of zombie languages: the living dead with plenty of entrenced codebases but with nothing to look forward to but a continued slide into technological irrelevance.
- CharlesW 9mo ago
  Objective-C is as dead because of Swift as C is because of Rust, which is to say, "not very". Objective-C remains a first-class iOS development language, and there's no sign of that changing for at least another decade.
  - pjmlp 9mo ago
    Although the only framework that was developed in Objective-C after Swift got introduced was Metal, anything else is mostly maintenance and incremental improvements.
- KlayLay 9mo ago
  People still write applications in Objective-C (e.g., see Transmission [1]), and the language is still maintained to support the latest OS. If anything, Apple being the largest sponsor of Objective-C would suggest that you get greater vendor lock-in out of it than Swift, since you can at least use the latter outside of Apple platforms (e.g., on a server). [1]: https://github.com/transmission/transmission https://github.com/transmission/transmission
  - hgs3 9mo ago
    > Apple being the largest sponsor of Objective-C would suggest that you get greater vendor lock-in out of it than Swift Fun fact, you can use Objective-C on non-Apple platforms [1] and with Cocoa APIs courtesy of the GNUstep project [2]. [1] https://github.com/gnustep/libobjc2 https://github.com/gnustep/libobjc2 [2] https://www.gnustep.org/ https://www.gnustep.org/
    - KlayLay 9mo ago
      Yes, but does anyone today really do that? The only value I see out of Objective-C on its own is as a performant and compromising Smalltalk.
    - pjmlp 9mo ago
      Only if you enjoy being stuck in something like Panther and Objective-C 1.x.
satvikpendem 9mo ago
Rust of all languages, now that it's been majorly adopted by many companies big and small, has a higher risk of losing support over a language developed exclusively by one corporation? I sincerely doubt that.

kibwen 9mo ago

Apple was the primary and only major sponsor of Objective-C, used it as the core foundation of their entire platform, and dropped it like a stone with little warning or ceremony. Yes, being tied so closely to Apple is an existential risk for Swift. One need only look at the quality and trajectory of MacOS to see that Apple isn't a software company, let alone a company that cares about developer experience (Xcode, anyone?). As far as modern Apple is concerned, the primary benefit of Swift is that it produces a tiny bit extra lock-in for iOS apps, by making cross-platform development more difficult.

j3th9n 9mo ago
Such bullshit, macOS is the best OS for power users.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- kibwen 9mo ago
  MacOS was only the best OS for power users between 1994 and 2008, at which point they shifted to x86.
  - j3th9n 9mo ago
    And it still is the best OS for power users.
- bigyabai 9mo ago
  Power users of Subway Surfers, maybe. Modern macOS is a tragedy: https://eclecticlight.co/2021/08/12/is-apple-keeping-its-promises-over-online-ocsp-certificate-checks/ https://eclecticlight.co/2021/08/12/is-apple-keeping-its-pro...
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
  - j3th9n 9mo ago
    Dude, this is some article from 5 years ago.
    - saagarjha 9mo ago
      They still didn’t fix it, so
st3fan 9mo ago
"and dropped it like a stone with little warning or ceremony" What?! This is complete nonsense. Swift was introduced 11 (!) years ago and it was clear from day one that it was going to be the future. Every single year since the introduction there were clear messages and hints in documentation and WWDC that Swift is in and Objective-C will _eventually_ be out. Little warning? Maybe if you kept your eyes closed the past 11 years. And do not forget that today you can still write apps in Objective-C.
- kibwen 9mo ago
  Whether or not Apple still has legacy pieces in Objective-C or still allows you to write apps in it is not the issue. The point here is that Apple shadow-dropped Swift and shifted essentially all of its development priority away from Objective-C in a matter of months.
  - st3fan 9mo ago
    I think that is a pretty inaccurate description of what happened the past 11 years.
    - kibwen 9mo ago
      I'm old enough to remember when Objective-C was a real and thriving (if niche) language. I remember all the buzz when automatic reference counting was the next big thing, pushed heavily by Apple and taking center stage at WWDC. And since the year Swift came out, Objective-C has joined Cobol in the category of zombie languages: the living dead with plenty of entrenced codebases but with nothing to look forward to but a continued slide into technological irrelevance.
CharlesW 9mo ago
Objective-C is as dead because of Swift as C is because of Rust, which is to say, "not very". Objective-C remains a first-class iOS development language, and there's no sign of that changing for at least another decade.
- pjmlp 9mo ago
  Although the only framework that was developed in Objective-C after Swift got introduced was Metal, anything else is mostly maintenance and incremental improvements.
KlayLay 9mo ago
People still write applications in Objective-C (e.g., see Transmission [1]), and the language is still maintained to support the latest OS. If anything, Apple being the largest sponsor of Objective-C would suggest that you get greater vendor lock-in out of it than Swift, since you can at least use the latter outside of Apple platforms (e.g., on a server). [1]: https://github.com/transmission/transmission https://github.com/transmission/transmission
- hgs3 9mo ago
  > Apple being the largest sponsor of Objective-C would suggest that you get greater vendor lock-in out of it than Swift Fun fact, you can use Objective-C on non-Apple platforms [1] and with Cocoa APIs courtesy of the GNUstep project [2]. [1] https://github.com/gnustep/libobjc2 https://github.com/gnustep/libobjc2 [2] https://www.gnustep.org/ https://www.gnustep.org/
  - KlayLay 9mo ago
    Yes, but does anyone today really do that? The only value I see out of Objective-C on its own is as a performant and compromising Smalltalk.
  - pjmlp 9mo ago
    Only if you enjoy being stuck in something like Panther and Objective-C 1.x.

satvikpendem 9mo ago

Rust of all languages, now that it's been majorly adopted by many companies big and small, has a higher risk of losing support over a language developed exclusively by one corporation? I sincerely doubt that.