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Any kind of zero knowledge verification should be ok. But with minors it often goes a long way to just make the law. It’s a good instruction to parents who sho

Any kind of zero knowledge verification should be ok. But with minors it often goes a long way to just make the law. It’s a good instruction to parents who should be able to control this. Laws on bike helmets for minors are followed nearly 100% not because they are enforced by authorities but because the law gives parents guidance.

Mindwipe 9mo ago
There is no such thing in practice. Anything with zero knowledge is never going to be considered robust enough by a government. Zero knowledge protocols really have no functional revocation mechanism.
- pydry 9mo ago
  expiry
- JoshTriplett 9mo ago
  (Without accepting the premise that it should be acceptable to have to provide any kind of proof...) > Zero knowledge protocols really have no functional revocation mechanism. None would be needed, you (sadly) only age in one direction, so valid proof would never become invalid proof.
  - mrob 9mo ago
    >valid proof would never become invalid proof Somebody can give their proof of age to another person.
    - JoshTriplett 9mo ago
      And? Presentation of someone else's valid credentials is not fixable by any privacy-preserving mechanism. You can set an expiration date in order to rotate them, and they can be fast-rotating. In any case, it's a moot point: the correct amount of required identification is zero.
      - Mindwipe 9mo ago
        > Presentation of someone else's valid credentials is not fixable by any privacy-preserving mechanism. And that is precisely why governments will never implement a privacy-preserving mechanism, which is exactly my point. Compromised tokens would be trivially google-able within a day otherwise.
- tzs 9mo ago
  The EU has been working on a zero knowledge system as part of the EU Digital Identity Wallet project for a few years now. It is currently undergoing large scale field tests in several countries with expected release late this year. All member states are required to provide at least one free secure interoperable implementation to their citizens, and regulated industries such as banks and telecoms, are required to accept it. If a member state passes a law requiring age verification on social media it must include the EU Digital Identity Wallet as one of the verification methods the site must support. What was that about no government would consider zero knowledge to be robust enough?
  - nate_meurer 9mo ago
    Which of these governments do you trust? The same governments, mind you, that are working diligently to end anonymity on the Internet.
    - numeri 9mo ago
      Introducing a solid zero-knowledge age verification option is the opposite direction of ending anonymity in the Internet, which other parts of the same governments are also working on. So yeah, I'll gladly trust and cheer on the part working in the right direction.
  - Fervicus 9mo ago
    Same EU that wants to ban encryption?
  - Mindwipe 9mo ago
    The EU Digital Identity Wallet isn't zero knowledge. I mean it's just not. It relies on Google Play Integrity Attestation on Android and the iOS equivalent on Apple devices because those give it a revocation mechanism, and those aren't zero knowledge. https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/av-doc-technical-specification/discussions/19 https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/av-doc-technic... It says that it wants to be zero knowledge, but it has no zero knowledge implementation and no plan of how it even possibly could be zero knowledge, and it never will precisely because that is incompatible with the revocation requirements set down by the EU.
junofan 9mo ago
Bike helmets are for safety but reading the article the ban is more for some kind of societal change. I don’t know if it’s really comparable.
- alkonaut 9mo ago
  I think parent's _want_ to keep kids in helmets and away from social media. But the pressure is some times high when Joe can ride without helmet, or can use TikTok. A law really helped the bike helmet thing at least. That they are fundamentally different I think doesn't matter since the peer pressure thing and what parents want is the same.

Mindwipe 9mo ago

There is no such thing in practice. Anything with zero knowledge is never going to be considered robust enough by a government. Zero knowledge protocols really have no functional revocation mechanism.

pydry 9mo ago
expiry
JoshTriplett 9mo ago
(Without accepting the premise that it should be acceptable to have to provide any kind of proof...) > Zero knowledge protocols really have no functional revocation mechanism. None would be needed, you (sadly) only age in one direction, so valid proof would never become invalid proof.
- mrob 9mo ago
  >valid proof would never become invalid proof Somebody can give their proof of age to another person.
  - JoshTriplett 9mo ago
    And? Presentation of someone else's valid credentials is not fixable by any privacy-preserving mechanism. You can set an expiration date in order to rotate them, and they can be fast-rotating. In any case, it's a moot point: the correct amount of required identification is zero.
    - Mindwipe 9mo ago
      > Presentation of someone else's valid credentials is not fixable by any privacy-preserving mechanism. And that is precisely why governments will never implement a privacy-preserving mechanism, which is exactly my point. Compromised tokens would be trivially google-able within a day otherwise.
tzs 9mo ago
The EU has been working on a zero knowledge system as part of the EU Digital Identity Wallet project for a few years now. It is currently undergoing large scale field tests in several countries with expected release late this year. All member states are required to provide at least one free secure interoperable implementation to their citizens, and regulated industries such as banks and telecoms, are required to accept it. If a member state passes a law requiring age verification on social media it must include the EU Digital Identity Wallet as one of the verification methods the site must support. What was that about no government would consider zero knowledge to be robust enough?
- nate_meurer 9mo ago
  Which of these governments do you trust? The same governments, mind you, that are working diligently to end anonymity on the Internet.
  - numeri 9mo ago
    Introducing a solid zero-knowledge age verification option is the opposite direction of ending anonymity in the Internet, which other parts of the same governments are also working on. So yeah, I'll gladly trust and cheer on the part working in the right direction.
- Fervicus 9mo ago
  Same EU that wants to ban encryption?
- Mindwipe 9mo ago
  The EU Digital Identity Wallet isn't zero knowledge. I mean it's just not. It relies on Google Play Integrity Attestation on Android and the iOS equivalent on Apple devices because those give it a revocation mechanism, and those aren't zero knowledge. https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/av-doc-technical-specification/discussions/19 https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/av-doc-technic... It says that it wants to be zero knowledge, but it has no zero knowledge implementation and no plan of how it even possibly could be zero knowledge, and it never will precisely because that is incompatible with the revocation requirements set down by the EU.

junofan 9mo ago

Bike helmets are for safety but reading the article the ban is more for some kind of societal change. I don’t know if it’s really comparable.

alkonaut 9mo ago
I think parent's _want_ to keep kids in helmets and away from social media. But the pressure is some times high when Joe can ride without helmet, or can use TikTok. A law really helped the bike helmet thing at least. That they are fundamentally different I think doesn't matter since the peer pressure thing and what parents want is the same.