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I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that. Sadly I know _many_ people that make six figures and complain about things like student debt and credit c

I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that. Sadly I know _many_ people that make six figures and complain about things like student debt and credit card debt. One guy claimed he was lower middle class (he was making $110k at the time, with only a wife, who didn't work, to support). If $110k is lower middle class, then I must be in poverty. It's like the idea that they can lower their living standard slightly to achieve financial goals just doesn't occur to some people. People that make good money and manage it poorly garner zero sympathy from me.

newt0311 18y ago
Yeah, but college didn't teach them about basic finance!!! Clearly its not their fault. On a more serious note: It would be nice if some finance education was mandatory. Ex: there is no good reason for having any credit card debt and yet people still have tons. It shows that they don't know how to manage their income even if they have lots to go around.
jwesley 18y ago
The lawyer mentioned was clearly a dope. The story said he accepted a loan for over $100K without knowing what the interest rate was or who he was borrowing from. Sure, they might have pressured him (like car dealerships do), but you'd have to be moron to get suckered that bad.
- kragen 18y ago
  The interest rate was pretty good, only varying up to 9%. I'm not a fan of variable-rate loans but he seems to have come out on the good end of this one.
tptacek 18y ago
I don't know about "lower middle class", but in Manhattan and San Francisco, $110k is definitely "bachelor-class". You might not be able to comfortably raise a child, commute from Jersey to Manhattan, and make student loan payments on $110k/yr. Then you say, "well then don't live in Manhattan", which is probably true-but-not-obvious, but also implies you're going to take a wage cut to work somewhere else. And not everyone is as geographically mobile as a 25 year old hacker.
- Xichekolas 18y ago
  I should have qualified and said this was Kansas City. $110k definitely can raise a family there. It's not exactly the carefree level of money, but when the average house costs $185k, it's no where near 'lower middle class'.
- yummyfajitas 18y ago
  You can easily commute from Jersey to Manhattan, make student loan payments and raise a child on $110k/yr. I did the first two on only $20,000/year (though I admit, my loans were a lot more sensible than those of the couple described in this article). You could also live on $110k manhattan if you are willing to live north of 111th st. A 2br 2bath up there ran $2100/month back during the bubble (less now).
  - tptacek 18y ago
    I was offered a job at Bloomberg in 2003, at a significantly better starting than $110k/yr, moving from Ann Arbor, MI. I did this math. So, three things: (1) I'll spare you yet another hypothetical family budget monthly itemization. (2) I'll concede that it is clearly possible to raise a family in New York on $110k/yr. (3) I'll assert again that it is not comfortable to raise a family in New York on $110k/yr, nor does it appear to be easy. There are obviously a lot of sacrifices you can make to make the budget work out, but in a family scenario, not all sacrifices are tenable.
    - yummyfajitas 18y ago
      Could you define comfortable? I'm really curious to know what goods and services are beyond your reach at $110k/year. I've also done the math and lived it. Commuting from jersey is better, but even manhattan (north of 111'th st) is quite livable.
      - tptacek 18y ago
        $110k is ~$6600/mo net working Manhattan, living in Jersey. Aggressively assume $2500/mo to rent a house (forget buying). Assume part-time child care @ $900, commute @ $400, lowball utilities @ $500 (I pay more than that in Chicago), food @ $1000, car insurance for one car @ $200, and dependent health care at $150. At $110k/yr, you're now less than $1000/mo over break-even. Lose an alternator in the car, you're in the red. Fill 3 cavities, you're in the red. Fly to Tucson for a funeral, you're in the red. Can you do it? Yes. But I'm not going to call it easy.
jcromartie 18y ago
It's always relative. People seem to define "rich" as "someone with more money than me."
jcromartie 18y ago
It's always relative. People seem to define "rich" as "someone with more money than me."

newt0311 18y ago

Yeah, but college didn't teach them about basic finance!!! Clearly its not their fault. On a more serious note: It would be nice if some finance education was mandatory. Ex: there is no good reason for having any credit card debt and yet people still have tons. It shows that they don't know how to manage their income even if they have lots to go around.

jwesley 18y ago

The lawyer mentioned was clearly a dope. The story said he accepted a loan for over $100K without knowing what the interest rate was or who he was borrowing from. Sure, they might have pressured him (like car dealerships do), but you'd have to be moron to get suckered that bad.

kragen 18y ago
The interest rate was pretty good, only varying up to 9%. I'm not a fan of variable-rate loans but he seems to have come out on the good end of this one.

tptacek 18y ago

I don't know about "lower middle class", but in Manhattan and San Francisco, $110k is definitely "bachelor-class". You might not be able to comfortably raise a child, commute from Jersey to Manhattan, and make student loan payments on $110k/yr. Then you say, "well then don't live in Manhattan", which is probably true-but-not-obvious, but also implies you're going to take a wage cut to work somewhere else. And not everyone is as geographically mobile as a 25 year old hacker.

Xichekolas 18y ago
I should have qualified and said this was Kansas City. $110k definitely can raise a family there. It's not exactly the carefree level of money, but when the average house costs $185k, it's no where near 'lower middle class'.
yummyfajitas 18y ago
You can easily commute from Jersey to Manhattan, make student loan payments and raise a child on $110k/yr. I did the first two on only $20,000/year (though I admit, my loans were a lot more sensible than those of the couple described in this article). You could also live on $110k manhattan if you are willing to live north of 111th st. A 2br 2bath up there ran $2100/month back during the bubble (less now).
- tptacek 18y ago
  I was offered a job at Bloomberg in 2003, at a significantly better starting than $110k/yr, moving from Ann Arbor, MI. I did this math. So, three things: (1) I'll spare you yet another hypothetical family budget monthly itemization. (2) I'll concede that it is clearly possible to raise a family in New York on $110k/yr. (3) I'll assert again that it is not comfortable to raise a family in New York on $110k/yr, nor does it appear to be easy. There are obviously a lot of sacrifices you can make to make the budget work out, but in a family scenario, not all sacrifices are tenable.
  - yummyfajitas 18y ago
    Could you define comfortable? I'm really curious to know what goods and services are beyond your reach at $110k/year. I've also done the math and lived it. Commuting from jersey is better, but even manhattan (north of 111'th st) is quite livable.
    - tptacek 18y ago
      $110k is ~$6600/mo net working Manhattan, living in Jersey. Aggressively assume $2500/mo to rent a house (forget buying). Assume part-time child care @ $900, commute @ $400, lowball utilities @ $500 (I pay more than that in Chicago), food @ $1000, car insurance for one car @ $200, and dependent health care at $150. At $110k/yr, you're now less than $1000/mo over break-even. Lose an alternator in the car, you're in the red. Fill 3 cavities, you're in the red. Fly to Tucson for a funeral, you're in the red. Can you do it? Yes. But I'm not going to call it easy.

jcromartie 18y ago

It's always relative. People seem to define "rich" as "someone with more money than me."

jcromartie 18y ago

It's always relative. People seem to define "rich" as "someone with more money than me."