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Europe will never have competitive offerings until they pay their employees the equivalent of what FAANGs pay. If you work for GCP or AWS in Europe, you'll eas

Europe will never have competitive offerings until they pay their employees the equivalent of what FAANGs pay. If you work for GCP or AWS in Europe, you'll easily get twice as much income as if you do the exact same job for Hetzner or OVH. You can't build equivalents to GCP and AWS without paying the same. I work for a FAANG right now in Europe and I wouldn't consider even a single second any European cloud provider as potential employers.

embedding-shape 9mo ago
> Europe will never have competitive offerings until they pay their employees the equivalent of what FAANGs pay. Stop focusing on the absolute number of "$/year", and things will make more sense. Seemingly you'll be able to live a more lavish life in Spain given 1/4 of the salary compared to FAANG, yet your life is better and you can afford more. Higher salaries aren't always better, especially when you're almost willfully ignoring more important things like purchasing power and quality of life.
- mgh95 9mo ago
  > Higher salaries aren't always better, especially when you're almost willfully ignoring more important things like purchasing power and quality of life. Senior SWE salaries I'm finding in a quick google search in Spain are 80k eur. According to levels.fyi [1] Google (and presumably the other clouds) are paying 170k eur. The comparison isn't even "is 4x the salary better in the US?" it's "is 2x the salary better in the same place?" which is obviously yes. [1] https://www.levels.fyi/companies/google/salaries/software-engineer/locations/spain?country=226 https://www.levels.fyi/companies/google/salaries/software-en...
  - embedding-shape 9mo ago
    Again, by focusing solely on the salary you're missing the bigger picture. I know y'all are conditioned to just focusing on the salary, but there is so much more to life.
    - inglor_cz 9mo ago
      While this sounds like great philosophical advice, in practice big salaries do attract employees regardless. If you want to solve the "brain drain to American companies" problem, ignoring the fact that they pay better isn't likely to help.
    - mgh95 9mo ago
      I don't think I am. Spanish employees of Google benefit just as much from Spanish employment law as Jose's Web Dev Shop. It's the purest comparison considering it's within the exact same country.
    - Nextgrid 9mo ago
      Unfortunately my landlord does not agree and wants his payment in actual money, and so do a lot of services we rely on to live.
  - Juliate 9mo ago
    But you still won't get with 170k in the Bay Area, what you get in Paris, Madrid, Nantes or Barcelona with 80k. In France, if you get 80k net, you do actually get ~160k, half of which is collected/distributed before by your employer to various mutualised funds (health, retirement, unemployment, state taxes, employee benefits, etc.). And the mechanism is somewhat similar in other EU countries.
    - mgh95 9mo ago
      > But you still won't get with 170k in the Bay Area, what you get in Paris, Madrid, Nantes or Barcelona with 80k. Note the 170k eur is in Spain -- not the bay area. I compared salaries of Google in Spain to the average salary of a senior SWE in Spain. The point isn't that the big tech pay more in the bay area compared to Spain. The point is the big tech companies pay more in Spain compared to other Spanish companies. And 170k eur in Spain is much more than 80k eur in Spain.
      - Juliate 9mo ago
        Oh wow. If that's 170k as an employee (not a contractor), yes, that's definitely impressive.
    - Nextgrid 9mo ago
      80k net is 6.6k. If you're getting 80k (which is the very upper end of the range) it's likely you are in Paris, where you're gonna give at least 2k of that on rent for a shitty damp place, and double that for something decent. Trust me I would love to quit consulting and be able to have a chill permanent job that can afford me a good flat and lifestyle. I'm still searching. Spain situation is very similar last time I ran the numbers. Definitely no fucking way I'm helping anyone build a cloud provider (a cash cow considering the margins in there) for such pay. If I want to sell my soul to the devil, the one across the pond is gonna give me twice as many bucks for it.
      - Juliate 9mo ago
        2k for a rent in Paris gets you nice places if you have the time to spend to look for it. Cooking your own food at home definitely makes a huge difference every month. The suburb is quite nice too, if you get a few home-office days. For 4k? you can have a big house+garden at 30min from Paris center (https://www.seloger.com/classified-search?distributionTypes=Rent&estateTypes=House,Apartment&locations=AD08FR32613&priceMax=4000&order=PriceDesc https://www.seloger.com/classified-search?distributionTypes=...) As a SRE, I got 65k in Nantes before I quit, and I've never had to think about any single expense at all, not once (having kids, house, dog, car, garden). That would still have been quite confortable in Paris (swapping the house for a smaller flat, and without the car/dog/garden though).
- iLoveOncall 9mo ago
  I'm not comparing European salaries with American ones, I'm comparing salaries paid by American cloud providers IN EUROPE with salaries paid by European cloud providers.
lnsru 9mo ago
I upvoted you. That’s absolutely true for other roles as well. Like hardware design engineers. At US company in Germany one gets real salary. At German big company one will make 2/3 of that salary. People are not stupid, why choose fraction of the salary when one can take it all. There are outliers, but majority will want to work for more than less money.
p1anecrazy 9mo ago
Be the change you wish to see. If professionals like you join European companies it will help grow their business and offer competitive salaries.
- raincole 9mo ago
  ~30% salary cut isn't a change many people wish to see.
  - deaux 9mo ago
    There's a reason gambling companies end up paying more than market rates for the same roles, and it's not out of generosity.
- iLoveOncall 9mo ago
  That's absolutely not how any of this works. If they can get top talent for half the salary they won't suddenly start paying more. There is only one solution: EU governments heavily subsidize those European cloud providers which enables them to offer top salaries and therefore attract top talent.
  - cindyllm 9mo ago
    [dead]
  - Nextgrid 9mo ago
    It would also help not taxing those incomes at 60%. Every time I look at a permanent role in Europe, if I didn't already close the tab based on the offered salary, I plug the number into a take-home calculator and then I close the tab for sure.
deaux 9mo ago
There's always money to be made from being a traitor. Maybe next time Yandex Cloud or Aramco Cloud offers you 50% more and off you go. And yes, I've walked the talk, so I can say this.
- iLoveOncall 9mo ago
  Laughable hyperbole.

embedding-shape 9mo ago

> Europe will never have competitive offerings until they pay their employees the equivalent of what FAANGs pay. Stop focusing on the absolute number of "$/year", and things will make more sense. Seemingly you'll be able to live a more lavish life in Spain given 1/4 of the salary compared to FAANG, yet your life is better and you can afford more. Higher salaries aren't always better, especially when you're almost willfully ignoring more important things like purchasing power and quality of life.

mgh95 9mo ago
> Higher salaries aren't always better, especially when you're almost willfully ignoring more important things like purchasing power and quality of life. Senior SWE salaries I'm finding in a quick google search in Spain are 80k eur. According to levels.fyi [1] Google (and presumably the other clouds) are paying 170k eur. The comparison isn't even "is 4x the salary better in the US?" it's "is 2x the salary better in the same place?" which is obviously yes. [1] https://www.levels.fyi/companies/google/salaries/software-engineer/locations/spain?country=226 https://www.levels.fyi/companies/google/salaries/software-en...
- embedding-shape 9mo ago
  Again, by focusing solely on the salary you're missing the bigger picture. I know y'all are conditioned to just focusing on the salary, but there is so much more to life.
  - inglor_cz 9mo ago
    While this sounds like great philosophical advice, in practice big salaries do attract employees regardless. If you want to solve the "brain drain to American companies" problem, ignoring the fact that they pay better isn't likely to help.
  - mgh95 9mo ago
    I don't think I am. Spanish employees of Google benefit just as much from Spanish employment law as Jose's Web Dev Shop. It's the purest comparison considering it's within the exact same country.
  - Nextgrid 9mo ago
    Unfortunately my landlord does not agree and wants his payment in actual money, and so do a lot of services we rely on to live.
- Juliate 9mo ago
  But you still won't get with 170k in the Bay Area, what you get in Paris, Madrid, Nantes or Barcelona with 80k. In France, if you get 80k net, you do actually get ~160k, half of which is collected/distributed before by your employer to various mutualised funds (health, retirement, unemployment, state taxes, employee benefits, etc.). And the mechanism is somewhat similar in other EU countries.
  - mgh95 9mo ago
    > But you still won't get with 170k in the Bay Area, what you get in Paris, Madrid, Nantes or Barcelona with 80k. Note the 170k eur is in Spain -- not the bay area. I compared salaries of Google in Spain to the average salary of a senior SWE in Spain. The point isn't that the big tech pay more in the bay area compared to Spain. The point is the big tech companies pay more in Spain compared to other Spanish companies. And 170k eur in Spain is much more than 80k eur in Spain.
    - Juliate 9mo ago
      Oh wow. If that's 170k as an employee (not a contractor), yes, that's definitely impressive.
  - Nextgrid 9mo ago
    80k net is 6.6k. If you're getting 80k (which is the very upper end of the range) it's likely you are in Paris, where you're gonna give at least 2k of that on rent for a shitty damp place, and double that for something decent. Trust me I would love to quit consulting and be able to have a chill permanent job that can afford me a good flat and lifestyle. I'm still searching. Spain situation is very similar last time I ran the numbers. Definitely no fucking way I'm helping anyone build a cloud provider (a cash cow considering the margins in there) for such pay. If I want to sell my soul to the devil, the one across the pond is gonna give me twice as many bucks for it.
    - Juliate 9mo ago
      2k for a rent in Paris gets you nice places if you have the time to spend to look for it. Cooking your own food at home definitely makes a huge difference every month. The suburb is quite nice too, if you get a few home-office days. For 4k? you can have a big house+garden at 30min from Paris center (https://www.seloger.com/classified-search?distributionTypes=Rent&estateTypes=House,Apartment&locations=AD08FR32613&priceMax=4000&order=PriceDesc https://www.seloger.com/classified-search?distributionTypes=...) As a SRE, I got 65k in Nantes before I quit, and I've never had to think about any single expense at all, not once (having kids, house, dog, car, garden). That would still have been quite confortable in Paris (swapping the house for a smaller flat, and without the car/dog/garden though).
iLoveOncall 9mo ago
I'm not comparing European salaries with American ones, I'm comparing salaries paid by American cloud providers IN EUROPE with salaries paid by European cloud providers.

lnsru 9mo ago

I upvoted you. That’s absolutely true for other roles as well. Like hardware design engineers. At US company in Germany one gets real salary. At German big company one will make 2/3 of that salary. People are not stupid, why choose fraction of the salary when one can take it all. There are outliers, but majority will want to work for more than less money.

p1anecrazy 9mo ago

Be the change you wish to see. If professionals like you join European companies it will help grow their business and offer competitive salaries.

raincole 9mo ago
~30% salary cut isn't a change many people wish to see.
- deaux 9mo ago
  There's a reason gambling companies end up paying more than market rates for the same roles, and it's not out of generosity.
iLoveOncall 9mo ago
That's absolutely not how any of this works. If they can get top talent for half the salary they won't suddenly start paying more. There is only one solution: EU governments heavily subsidize those European cloud providers which enables them to offer top salaries and therefore attract top talent.
- cindyllm 9mo ago
  [dead]
- Nextgrid 9mo ago
  It would also help not taxing those incomes at 60%. Every time I look at a permanent role in Europe, if I didn't already close the tab based on the offered salary, I plug the number into a take-home calculator and then I close the tab for sure.

deaux 9mo ago

There's always money to be made from being a traitor. Maybe next time Yandex Cloud or Aramco Cloud offers you 50% more and off you go. And yes, I've walked the talk, so I can say this.

iLoveOncall 9mo ago
Laughable hyperbole.