5 ms·

US judge rules Luigi Mangione won't face death penalty in CEO killing case

79 points by Qem 8mo ago

qwe----3 8mo ago
Why?
- ath3nd 8mo ago
  [dead]
- laweijfmvo 8mo ago
  The article says why the death penalty is no longer on the table — because the federal murder and weapons charges were dismissed, and the remaining charges do not qualify for capital punishment. The article does not say why the charges were dismissed, though.
  - rolph 8mo ago
    no they dont say why, not here. apparently the cops acted like the 4th didnt exist, so the backpack contents were disqualified as evidence. federal stalking charges have stuck so now life in prison is on the table.
    - toomuchtodo 8mo ago
      He’s going to walk.
      - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
        > He’s going to walk If you actually believe this you can more than 10x your money [1]. [1] https://polymarket.com/event/luigi-mangione-out-of-custody-before-2027 https://polymarket.com/event/luigi-mangione-out-of-custody-b...
        toomuchtodo 8mo ago
        Prediction markets are notoriously unreliable from a resolution perspective.
      - almosthere 8mo ago
        I actually think it's so bad in our country right now that if someone showed up at the court and snuck a gun in and shot Luigi in the back and killed him ... THAT guy would definitely get the death penalty. (he should, but so should Luigi) It's all political at this point.
        dagmx 8mo ago
        Why should either of them get the death penalty?
        JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
        > Why should either of them get the death penalty? Pardons. If he's pardoned there is a good chance he'll kill again. (And inspire copycats.) We need to eliminate pardons across our system of justice. Between Biden pardoning his son and Trump pardoning the J6'ers, there should be a bipartisan case for closing this.
        dagmx 8mo ago
        Why would he need to be pardoned to inspire copycats? Why wouldn’t his death cause him to become a martyr and inspire others? Why would he be pardoned by the governor at all? Why do you believe Hunter Biden being pardoned is on the same level as J6 being pardoned, when the reasoning (accurately) was to protect him from a perversion of the law in turn? Your entire argument is essentially “kill them before they can prove they’re not still a threat”.
        ben_w 8mo ago
        > Why do you believe Hunter Biden being pardoned is on the same level as J6 being pardoned, when the reasoning (accurately) was to protect him from a perversion of the law in turn? Not to speak for JumpCrisscross, but IMO this could be construed not as "Hunter Biden being pardoned is on the same level as J6 being pardoned" but rather "Republicans will support the end of presidential pardoning because of Hunter Biden being pardoned, while Democrats will support the end of presidential pardoning because of J6 being pardoned".
      - brandonmenc 8mo ago
        Keep dreaming. I'm not sure why so many people believe that what - jury nullification? - is going to happen.
        toomuchtodo 8mo ago
        $1.4M defense fund (so far), exceptional legal team, jury nullification, lots of paths to success. His case is going well so far, and appeals are always an option. “Proof beyond a reasonable doubt” is the bar. How confident are you there isn’t at least one juror who hasn’t been harmed by their health insurance, financially or medically? Only takes one.
        JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
        > How confident are you there isn’t at least one juror who hasn’t been harmed by their health insurance, financially or medically? Who doesn't perjor themselves during voir dire, thereby triggering a mistrial? Pretty confident. Maybe he gets lucky in federal court because Bondi is an idiot. But the state charges are solid, and New York isn't Reddit.
        toomuchtodo 8mo ago
        I’ll bet you a bottle of a beverage you enjoy. Let me know. Laws are just loose rules we sometimes collectively adhere to, people are mostly emotion driven. Sometimes the law matters, but sometimes not.
        JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
        > I’ll bet you a bottle of a beverage you enjoy. Let me know I’ll take it! If he’s found not guilty on all counts in his state and federal trials, I owe you. > people are mostly emotion driven Sure. A prosecutor’s (and judge’s) job is to remove these people from a jury pool.
        JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
        > not sure why so many people believe that what - jury nullification? - is going to happen Eh, if I thought Mangione was justified or effective it would be an easy way to feel good for a while with zero real-world consequences apart from my moral integrity. (Which, to be clear, is mine and mine alone. I have friends–good people whom I love and respect–who would nullify Mangione. They're just never getting seated on his jury without perjuring themselves.)
      - burnt-resistor 8mo ago
        Only if he has $2M and mentions how much he loves red hats.
        toomuchtodo 8mo ago
        Do you think it's unlikely he couldn't raise $2M for a pardon bribe? We are in unconventional times after all.
    - datsci_est_2015 8mo ago
      This is a better source: https://apnews.com/article/mangione-unitedhealthcare-death-penalty-dismissed-killing-1d17a30d0297acda29fc82dbf54d2677 https://apnews.com/article/mangione-unitedhealthcare-death-p... The judge ruled the backpack evidence can be used.
  - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
    > because the federal murder and weapons charges were dismissed Why were these charges dismissed?
    - _--__--__ 8mo ago
      Federal courts do not have jurisdiction over murders by default. There are two obvious cases where they do (murder of a federal official, murder on federal land) and a shaky third category of "murder pursuant to another federal crime". In the past that third category has been used to charge organized criminals, anything that touches the interstate commerce act (drug trafficking/contract killing/etc), and terrorism. Charging Mangione with federal murder connected to a federal stalking charge was relatively unprecedented, but they might get it to stick on appeal. Stalking is threatening but maybe not inherently violent, but that seems similar to bank robbery (where FDIC insurance is frequently used to grant federal jurisdiction over involved homicides).
      - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
        Wouldn’t his interstate escape and target list let the federal murder charges stick?
        _--__--__ 8mo ago
        Mangione is charged with killing a man (in New York, with New York state jurisdiction) and stalking a man (across multiple states, the federal charge). There is no such thing as a federal crime of fleeing across state lines or owning a list of assassination targets.
rahimnathwani 8mo ago
The article doesn't explain clearly why, even though no one seems to be disputing the murder, the murder charge is being dismissed. It's because of jurisdiction. Normally, only states have jurisdiction over murders. The feds can charge murder if and only if the murder is connected to some other federal "crime of violence" (e.g. killing a federal official, murder-for-hire across state lines). Here, the federal 'hook' was interstate stalking. But the federal stalking crime apparently isn't a "crime of violence" because you can stalk without intentional force. Because the stalking charges don't legally qualify as "crimes of violence", the federal government doesn't have jurisdiction over the alleged murder.
- mangymangy 8mo ago
  [dead]
- dragonwriter 8mo ago
  > The article doesn't explain clearly why, even though no one seems to be disputing the murder, the murder charge is being dismissed. I mean, its literally being dismissed because the defendant successfully disputed the murder (as even a valid charge under the prosecutors own allegations.) He also, in the parallel state case which does not rely on the much narrower federal murder statute used in the federal case, is disputing the alleged murder as a matter of fact. So, it is inaccurate to say “no one is disputing the murder”.
  - wakawaka28 8mo ago
    Does ANYONE doubt that this was a cold blooded and premeditated murder?
    - tekla 8mo ago
      Looking at various tech and hacker chats/social media and adjacent? 100% yes. I find it disgusting
      - snypher 8mo ago
defrost 8mo ago
Attorney General Pam Bondi ordered Manhattan federal prosecutors last April to seek the death penalty against Mangione. ... Judge Margaret Garnett dismissed a federal murder charge that had enabled prosecutors to seek capital punishment, finding it technically flawed. ~ https://apnews.com/article/mangione-unitedhealthcare-death-penalty-dismissed-killing-1d17a30d0297acda29fc82dbf54d2677 https://apnews.com/article/mangione-unitedhealthcare-death-p... How many gross errors of basic law and procedure has the current AG made and overseen to date? In 2020, Bondi was one of President Donald Trump's defense lawyers during his first impeachment trial. By 2024, she led the legal arm of the Trump-aligned America First Policy Institute. On November 21, 2024, President-elect Trump announced his intention to nominate Bondi for U.S. attorney general after former congressman Matt Gaetz withdrew from consideration. Personal lawyer, legal advisor for political think tank, second choice after Matt "F-ing" Gaetz ... These are impressive credentials.
- trhway 8mo ago
  Noem at the Senate hearing : "Well, habeas corpus is a constitutional right that the president has to be able to remove people from this country, and suspend their right to ..." After senator cut her off and explained what habeas corpus really is, Noem responded: "I support habeas corpus. I also recognize that the president of the United States has the authority under the Constitution to decide if it should be suspended or not."
  - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
    Source?
    - deleted 8mo ago
      [deleted]
    - defrost 8mo ago
      PBS News Hour, Question and response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPK41OPq6VY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPK41OPq6VY Such confidence. Even some brazen lies about following court orders sprinkled on top.

79 points by Qem 8mo ago

qwe----3 8mo ago

Why?

ath3nd 8mo ago
[dead]
laweijfmvo 8mo ago
The article says why the death penalty is no longer on the table — because the federal murder and weapons charges were dismissed, and the remaining charges do not qualify for capital punishment. The article does not say why the charges were dismissed, though.
- rolph 8mo ago
  no they dont say why, not here. apparently the cops acted like the 4th didnt exist, so the backpack contents were disqualified as evidence. federal stalking charges have stuck so now life in prison is on the table.
  - toomuchtodo 8mo ago
    He’s going to walk.
    - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
      > He’s going to walk If you actually believe this you can more than 10x your money [1]. [1] https://polymarket.com/event/luigi-mangione-out-of-custody-before-2027 https://polymarket.com/event/luigi-mangione-out-of-custody-b...
      - toomuchtodo 8mo ago
        Prediction markets are notoriously unreliable from a resolution perspective.
    - almosthere 8mo ago
      I actually think it's so bad in our country right now that if someone showed up at the court and snuck a gun in and shot Luigi in the back and killed him ... THAT guy would definitely get the death penalty. (he should, but so should Luigi) It's all political at this point.
      - dagmx 8mo ago
        Why should either of them get the death penalty?
        JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
        > Why should either of them get the death penalty? Pardons. If he's pardoned there is a good chance he'll kill again. (And inspire copycats.) We need to eliminate pardons across our system of justice. Between Biden pardoning his son and Trump pardoning the J6'ers, there should be a bipartisan case for closing this.
        dagmx 8mo ago
        Why would he need to be pardoned to inspire copycats? Why wouldn’t his death cause him to become a martyr and inspire others? Why would he be pardoned by the governor at all? Why do you believe Hunter Biden being pardoned is on the same level as J6 being pardoned, when the reasoning (accurately) was to protect him from a perversion of the law in turn? Your entire argument is essentially “kill them before they can prove they’re not still a threat”.
        ben_w 8mo ago
        > Why do you believe Hunter Biden being pardoned is on the same level as J6 being pardoned, when the reasoning (accurately) was to protect him from a perversion of the law in turn? Not to speak for JumpCrisscross, but IMO this could be construed not as "Hunter Biden being pardoned is on the same level as J6 being pardoned" but rather "Republicans will support the end of presidential pardoning because of Hunter Biden being pardoned, while Democrats will support the end of presidential pardoning because of J6 being pardoned".
    - brandonmenc 8mo ago
      Keep dreaming. I'm not sure why so many people believe that what - jury nullification? - is going to happen.
      - toomuchtodo 8mo ago
        $1.4M defense fund (so far), exceptional legal team, jury nullification, lots of paths to success. His case is going well so far, and appeals are always an option. “Proof beyond a reasonable doubt” is the bar. How confident are you there isn’t at least one juror who hasn’t been harmed by their health insurance, financially or medically? Only takes one.
        JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
        > How confident are you there isn’t at least one juror who hasn’t been harmed by their health insurance, financially or medically? Who doesn't perjor themselves during voir dire, thereby triggering a mistrial? Pretty confident. Maybe he gets lucky in federal court because Bondi is an idiot. But the state charges are solid, and New York isn't Reddit.
        toomuchtodo 8mo ago
        I’ll bet you a bottle of a beverage you enjoy. Let me know. Laws are just loose rules we sometimes collectively adhere to, people are mostly emotion driven. Sometimes the law matters, but sometimes not.
        JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
        > I’ll bet you a bottle of a beverage you enjoy. Let me know I’ll take it! If he’s found not guilty on all counts in his state and federal trials, I owe you. > people are mostly emotion driven Sure. A prosecutor’s (and judge’s) job is to remove these people from a jury pool.
      - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
        > not sure why so many people believe that what - jury nullification? - is going to happen Eh, if I thought Mangione was justified or effective it would be an easy way to feel good for a while with zero real-world consequences apart from my moral integrity. (Which, to be clear, is mine and mine alone. I have friends–good people whom I love and respect–who would nullify Mangione. They're just never getting seated on his jury without perjuring themselves.)
    - burnt-resistor 8mo ago
      Only if he has $2M and mentions how much he loves red hats.
      - toomuchtodo 8mo ago
        Do you think it's unlikely he couldn't raise $2M for a pardon bribe? We are in unconventional times after all.
  - datsci_est_2015 8mo ago
    This is a better source: https://apnews.com/article/mangione-unitedhealthcare-death-penalty-dismissed-killing-1d17a30d0297acda29fc82dbf54d2677 https://apnews.com/article/mangione-unitedhealthcare-death-p... The judge ruled the backpack evidence can be used.
- JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
  > because the federal murder and weapons charges were dismissed Why were these charges dismissed?
  - _--__--__ 8mo ago
    Federal courts do not have jurisdiction over murders by default. There are two obvious cases where they do (murder of a federal official, murder on federal land) and a shaky third category of "murder pursuant to another federal crime". In the past that third category has been used to charge organized criminals, anything that touches the interstate commerce act (drug trafficking/contract killing/etc), and terrorism. Charging Mangione with federal murder connected to a federal stalking charge was relatively unprecedented, but they might get it to stick on appeal. Stalking is threatening but maybe not inherently violent, but that seems similar to bank robbery (where FDIC insurance is frequently used to grant federal jurisdiction over involved homicides).
    - JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
      Wouldn’t his interstate escape and target list let the federal murder charges stick?
      - _--__--__ 8mo ago
        Mangione is charged with killing a man (in New York, with New York state jurisdiction) and stalking a man (across multiple states, the federal charge). There is no such thing as a federal crime of fleeing across state lines or owning a list of assassination targets.

rahimnathwani 8mo ago

The article doesn't explain clearly why, even though no one seems to be disputing the murder, the murder charge is being dismissed. It's because of jurisdiction. Normally, only states have jurisdiction over murders. The feds can charge murder if and only if the murder is connected to some other federal "crime of violence" (e.g. killing a federal official, murder-for-hire across state lines). Here, the federal 'hook' was interstate stalking. But the federal stalking crime apparently isn't a "crime of violence" because you can stalk without intentional force. Because the stalking charges don't legally qualify as "crimes of violence", the federal government doesn't have jurisdiction over the alleged murder.

mangymangy 8mo ago
[dead]
dragonwriter 8mo ago
> The article doesn't explain clearly why, even though no one seems to be disputing the murder, the murder charge is being dismissed. I mean, its literally being dismissed because the defendant successfully disputed the murder (as even a valid charge under the prosecutors own allegations.) He also, in the parallel state case which does not rely on the much narrower federal murder statute used in the federal case, is disputing the alleged murder as a matter of fact. So, it is inaccurate to say “no one is disputing the murder”.
- wakawaka28 8mo ago
  Does ANYONE doubt that this was a cold blooded and premeditated murder?
  - tekla 8mo ago
    Looking at various tech and hacker chats/social media and adjacent? 100% yes. I find it disgusting
    - snypher 8mo ago

defrost 8mo ago

Attorney General Pam Bondi ordered Manhattan federal prosecutors last April to seek the death penalty against Mangione. ... Judge Margaret Garnett dismissed a federal murder charge that had enabled prosecutors to seek capital punishment, finding it technically flawed. ~ https://apnews.com/article/mangione-unitedhealthcare-death-penalty-dismissed-killing-1d17a30d0297acda29fc82dbf54d2677 https://apnews.com/article/mangione-unitedhealthcare-death-p... How many gross errors of basic law and procedure has the current AG made and overseen to date? In 2020, Bondi was one of President Donald Trump's defense lawyers during his first impeachment trial. By 2024, she led the legal arm of the Trump-aligned America First Policy Institute. On November 21, 2024, President-elect Trump announced his intention to nominate Bondi for U.S. attorney general after former congressman Matt Gaetz withdrew from consideration. Personal lawyer, legal advisor for political think tank, second choice after Matt "F-ing" Gaetz ... These are impressive credentials.

trhway 8mo ago
Noem at the Senate hearing : "Well, habeas corpus is a constitutional right that the president has to be able to remove people from this country, and suspend their right to ..." After senator cut her off and explained what habeas corpus really is, Noem responded: "I support habeas corpus. I also recognize that the president of the United States has the authority under the Constitution to decide if it should be suspended or not."
- JumpCrisscross 8mo ago
  Source?
  - deleted 8mo ago
    [deleted]
  - defrost 8mo ago
    PBS News Hour, Question and response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPK41OPq6VY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPK41OPq6VY Such confidence. Even some brazen lies about following court orders sprinkled on top.