6 ms·

Its getting to the point where I am seriously considering closing my Amazon account. I just don't like the way it does business any more. Can anyone recommend a

Its getting to the point where I am seriously considering closing my Amazon account. I just don't like the way it does business any more. Can anyone recommend a good online bookseller in the UK? Is Waterstones any good? The Guardian is running a story [1] today about how Amazon forces publishers to cover the cost of 20% VAT (sales tax) on ebook sales, even though it only pays 3% to the Luxembourg government (where it is based for tax purposes). It also insists that if a publisher offers a better price to another retailer then it must offer the same price to Amazon. They also pay no corporation tax in the UK, despite sales of more than £3.3bn/yr [2], through being based in Luxembourg. I was going to jump ship to The Book Depository, but Amazon bought them last year. Its hard to understand why this was allowed by the competition regulator, and it doesn't give me much confidence that the UK government has much interest in limiting their control of multiple markets. [1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/21/amazon-forces-publishers-pay-vat-ebook http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/21/amazon-forc... [2] http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/04/amazon-british-operation-corporation-tax http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/04/amazon-brit...

phireal 14y ago
Waterstones used to use Amazon to sell books (presumably they couldn't make any money any other way). Not sure if they still do. http://www.abebooks.co.uk/ http://www.abebooks.co.uk/ is pretty good, particularly for difficult to find and second hand books. I've found more and more recently that play.com does almost as well as (and often better than) Amazon in terms of price, although I don't know much about their business tactics.
- aapl 14y ago
  AbeBooks is actually owned by Amazon now.
  - phireal 14y ago
    Seriously? Wow. Amazon really are dominating that particular market.
    - greenyoda 14y ago
      From AbeBooks' web site: AbeBooks Inc. is a subsidiary of Amazon.com, Inc. AbeBooks, an online bookselling pioneer, was acquired in December 2008 and remains a stand-alone operation with headquarters in Victoria, British Columbia, Canada, and a European office in Dusseldorf, Germany. http://www.abebooks.com/books/CompanyInformation http://www.abebooks.com/books/CompanyInformation
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
homeomorphic 14y ago
I find The Book Depository good, but I don't really know if they're good or evil. They're very pleasant doing business with, though.
- aapl 14y ago
  The Book Depository is owned by Amazon too :)
  - homeomorphic 14y ago
    Ugh, I had no idea. Thanks for informing me!
bruceboughton 14y ago
Every week there is a story in the UK press about how company A is not paying tax in the UK. This is not unique to Amazon. Vodafone, Amazon, Starbucks, Google, Apple, ...
- wyclif 14y ago
  Not that taxes are out of control in the UK or anything...
  - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
    Elaborate please?
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- DanBC 14y ago
  There's a twist in asking customers to pay 20%, and taking that from the authors, and then (according to GP) not paying the 20% in England but paying just 3% in some other country.
  - jonno 14y ago
    This sounds fraudulent.
    - DanBC 14y ago
      Vodaphone's shenanigans so they only paid £1.2bn of the estimated £6bn total tax bill also sounds well dodgy.
    - pja 14y ago
      You can be quite sure that the contract is not phrased in such a way that Amazon is required to pay 20% VAT on the ebooks in question to the UK government. Is it sleazy as all getout? Yup, absolutely: but it's not illegal. Companies pull this kind of bait and switch all the time when they think they can get away with it. Remember when Microsoft bought the original Internet Explorer codebase in return for the company in question receiving a cut of the profits and then gave it away for free? How they must have laughed about that one back at MS HQ... In reality, the publishers handed Amazon a near monopoly on ebook sales by their own short-sightedness and now Amazon is turning the thumbscrews to see how much they're actually prepared to cough up. The games with VAT in the contract are just part and parcel of that.
qw 14y ago
They have certainly lost me as a potential Kindle user. I was considering buying myself a Kindle for Christmas, but that's not going to happen now. I thought Amazon could be trusted with my money, but it's clear that it's too risky. I wouldn't be surprised if someone higher up sees her issues and activates her account. But I can't trust my money to a company where you could lose access to books worth thousands if you talk with the wrong person.
- chris_wot 14y ago
  It's not like they don't have form. In 2009 they erased all the versions of 1984 from all Kindles, to massive uproar. Back then, they said "We are changing our systems so that in the future we will not remove books from customers' devices in these circumstances". Looks like 3 years later they've decided to go back to what they were doing and promised not to do. And THIS is why I won't buy a Kindle. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18ama...
  - Antiks72 14y ago
    Ironic that it was 1984.
    - javajosh 14y ago
      Fahrenheit 451 would have been better.
      - Antiks72 14y ago
        Haven't read that one yet. Damn you for putting it on my list.
  - Monotoko 14y ago
    At least they gave these people their money back..
- gioele 14y ago
pragmatictester 14y ago
http://www.betterworldbooks.com/ http://www.betterworldbooks.com/ Used and new books. Free Shipping Worldwide. "Better World Books is a self-sustaining, for-profit social venture whose mission is to capitalize on the value of the book to fund literacy initiatives locally, nationally and around the world. We partner with nearly 1400 libraries and over 1800 college campuses across the U.S. and Canada, collecting unwanted textbooks and library discards in support of non-profit literacy programs. We have raised millions of dollars for literacy, saved millions of books from landfills, created jobs for hundreds of people, and provided wonderful books to millions of readers worldwide."
alsothings 14y ago
I'm a fan of foyles[1] and their selection and prices are quite good. [1]http://www.foyles.co.uk/ http://www.foyles.co.uk/
- andyjohnson0 14y ago
  Thanks for the suggestion! I'll do some price/terms comparisons. I don't mind paying a small premium to support an independent. Or I may try just ordering books at the Waterstones near where I work, and having them delivered there. The current owner of Waterstones seems to actually like and value books [1]. [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/james-daunt-amazon-are-a-ruthless-moneymaking-devil-the-consumers-enemy-6272351.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/james-daun...

phireal 14y ago

Waterstones used to use Amazon to sell books (presumably they couldn't make any money any other way). Not sure if they still do. http://www.abebooks.co.uk/ http://www.abebooks.co.uk/ is pretty good, particularly for difficult to find and second hand books. I've found more and more recently that play.com does almost as well as (and often better than) Amazon in terms of price, although I don't know much about their business tactics.

aapl 14y ago
AbeBooks is actually owned by Amazon now.
- phireal 14y ago
  Seriously? Wow. Amazon really are dominating that particular market.
  - greenyoda 14y ago
    From AbeBooks' web site: AbeBooks Inc. is a subsidiary of Amazon.com, Inc. AbeBooks, an online bookselling pioneer, was acquired in December 2008 and remains a stand-alone operation with headquarters in Victoria, British Columbia, Canada, and a European office in Dusseldorf, Germany. http://www.abebooks.com/books/CompanyInformation http://www.abebooks.com/books/CompanyInformation
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

homeomorphic 14y ago

I find The Book Depository good, but I don't really know if they're good or evil. They're very pleasant doing business with, though.

aapl 14y ago
The Book Depository is owned by Amazon too :)
- homeomorphic 14y ago
  Ugh, I had no idea. Thanks for informing me!

bruceboughton 14y ago

Every week there is a story in the UK press about how company A is not paying tax in the UK. This is not unique to Amazon. Vodafone, Amazon, Starbucks, Google, Apple, ...

wyclif 14y ago
Not that taxes are out of control in the UK or anything...
- Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
  Elaborate please?
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
DanBC 14y ago
There's a twist in asking customers to pay 20%, and taking that from the authors, and then (according to GP) not paying the 20% in England but paying just 3% in some other country.
- jonno 14y ago
  This sounds fraudulent.
  - DanBC 14y ago
    Vodaphone's shenanigans so they only paid £1.2bn of the estimated £6bn total tax bill also sounds well dodgy.
  - pja 14y ago
    You can be quite sure that the contract is not phrased in such a way that Amazon is required to pay 20% VAT on the ebooks in question to the UK government. Is it sleazy as all getout? Yup, absolutely: but it's not illegal. Companies pull this kind of bait and switch all the time when they think they can get away with it. Remember when Microsoft bought the original Internet Explorer codebase in return for the company in question receiving a cut of the profits and then gave it away for free? How they must have laughed about that one back at MS HQ... In reality, the publishers handed Amazon a near monopoly on ebook sales by their own short-sightedness and now Amazon is turning the thumbscrews to see how much they're actually prepared to cough up. The games with VAT in the contract are just part and parcel of that.

qw 14y ago

They have certainly lost me as a potential Kindle user. I was considering buying myself a Kindle for Christmas, but that's not going to happen now. I thought Amazon could be trusted with my money, but it's clear that it's too risky. I wouldn't be surprised if someone higher up sees her issues and activates her account. But I can't trust my money to a company where you could lose access to books worth thousands if you talk with the wrong person.

chris_wot 14y ago
It's not like they don't have form. In 2009 they erased all the versions of 1984 from all Kindles, to massive uproar. Back then, they said "We are changing our systems so that in the future we will not remove books from customers' devices in these circumstances". Looks like 3 years later they've decided to go back to what they were doing and promised not to do. And THIS is why I won't buy a Kindle. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18ama...
- Antiks72 14y ago
  Ironic that it was 1984.
  - javajosh 14y ago
    Fahrenheit 451 would have been better.
    - Antiks72 14y ago
      Haven't read that one yet. Damn you for putting it on my list.
- Monotoko 14y ago
  At least they gave these people their money back..
gioele 14y ago

pragmatictester 14y ago

http://www.betterworldbooks.com/ http://www.betterworldbooks.com/ Used and new books. Free Shipping Worldwide. "Better World Books is a self-sustaining, for-profit social venture whose mission is to capitalize on the value of the book to fund literacy initiatives locally, nationally and around the world. We partner with nearly 1400 libraries and over 1800 college campuses across the U.S. and Canada, collecting unwanted textbooks and library discards in support of non-profit literacy programs. We have raised millions of dollars for literacy, saved millions of books from landfills, created jobs for hundreds of people, and provided wonderful books to millions of readers worldwide."

alsothings 14y ago

I'm a fan of foyles[1] and their selection and prices are quite good. [1]http://www.foyles.co.uk/ http://www.foyles.co.uk/

andyjohnson0 14y ago
Thanks for the suggestion! I'll do some price/terms comparisons. I don't mind paying a small premium to support an independent. Or I may try just ordering books at the Waterstones near where I work, and having them delivered there. The current owner of Waterstones seems to actually like and value books [1]. [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/james-daunt-amazon-are-a-ruthless-moneymaking-devil-the-consumers-enemy-6272351.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/james-daun...