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Okay let's say it is murder (regardless that there is broad disagreement and no charges) What drives someone to feel emboldened to park their car in the middle

Okay let's say it is murder (regardless that there is broad disagreement and no charges) What drives someone to feel emboldened to park their car in the middle of an ICE operation and then attempt to drive off after being told to stop? What drives someone to run around spitting and kicking out lights on an ICE vehicle? It's like I can understand why someone is a sports fan, despite not following sports myself. I can fully understand, although I don't support, why someone would join the Taliban or Tren De Aragua or whatever other group. I can understand those things. But I still struggle to understand the above.

walletdrainer 8mo ago
>no charges This seems a bit disingenuous
JayNitram 8mo ago
Empathy, that is what you appear to be missing in your equation. If I see someone about to chuck a baby off a cliff, I hope I step out of my normal comfort zone and do something. In that case it is probably pretty clear, and this one seems grey for some people, but for others, and myself include, ICE is affecting people's lives in ways that is unacceptable and we need to do something.
- kreetx 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - JayNitram 8mo ago
    Streeeeeeeetch, but good on you, keep up whatever it is you are attempting.
    - kreetx 8mo ago
      (to the sibling, too) What did you see happen then? Here: https://youtu.be/NCfv1cWtpvg?t=66 https://youtu.be/NCfv1cWtpvg?t=66
      - JayNitram 8mo ago
        Masked people rushing a car and drawing weapons and the driver panicking. Now ask me who appears to escalate the entire situation. Or what the actual penalty for impeding a lane of traffic is.
        kreetx 8mo ago
        From what I've read, there was some kind of community watch and/or protest going on for ICE there, patrol cars, etc. But you're saying she had the suspicion that a few masked thugs had accidentally gotten lost within the police operation?
        JayNitram 8mo ago
        We are too far past the fascist crap too entertain this stupidity. I get it, you don't see a problem with any of it. Now go enjoy your dumb little life and I am going to go back trying to find ways to help make friends and family I have in the Minneapolis area feel safe again.
        kreetx 8mo ago
        Everything is more nuanced than your all-or-nothing any of it designation. You say that there was no getaway performed and the person trying to drive away wasn't aware that it was law enforcement that had ordered her to stay. Sure, she didn't deserve to die. But if you charge towards an officer, or reasonably appear to do so, then these things happen. Why didn't she peacefully stay put instead?
  - andrewjf 8mo ago
    Propaganda. The actual videos do not support this conclusion at all. You’re being lied to.
    - kreetx 8mo ago
      I've seen the actual videos. While tragic, then she was trying to drive away, not obeying the approaching officer's orders. At that moment, the officer towards she was driving was the one that shot her. It also seemed that right before the event she was doing some kind of traffic regulation there which is why the officers approached her.
      - mindslight 8mo ago
        You can't start at the point the ICE agent had already set up his pretext to execute her. That's equivalent to equating legality with morality, which doesn't work when talking about what ought to be. Rather you have to examine the entire situation, which was an extreme escalation by ICE in response to what was essentially protesting.
        kreetx 8mo ago
        There was no pretext to execute her. It's when she started driving (even spun the wheels I think) towards the officer were shots fired. In your mind, does police getaway equate with protesting now?
        mindslight 8mo ago
        As I said, you're starting at a point where the ICE agent had already set up his pretext to execute her.
        kreetx 8mo ago
        And as I said, there was no pretext to execute her. (Or you need to explain what the word "pretext" means to you, and perhaps also "execute".)
GJim 8mo ago
> park their car in the middle of an ICE operation and then attempt to drive off after being told to stop? > run around spitting and kicking out lights on an ICE vehicle? Do you seriously believe pulling a gun and killing somebody is an appropriate response to such actions? Because if you do, that is a dangerously authoritan attitude.
- mothballed 8mo ago
  Why would they find it inappropriate? It's fun for them and they're guaranteed to get away with it. All the opposition does is vote harder and ask nicely that the state not do it again. Worst case, someone sues and it's paid by OPM. But having been the subject of brutality by CBP, I can tell you it's almost impossible to find a lawyer (all the ones I talked to had already tried and lost so many times they wouldn't take a case, though maybe you have better luck now since immigration law is in vogue) and if you do your chances of overcoming supremacy clause and immunities are next to nill. (Lady in a more egregious case but otherwise similar facts to mine, was raped via hand because the argument was there was drugs up there -- she lost even though there weren't any). The reason why Trump chose ICE/CBP as his gestapo is precisely because they have excellent overlap of both being largely carved out from constitutional protections via both precedent and their situation as an executive nominally border facing police and the fact they answer to POTUS and can function as an army without running afoul of posse comitatus. Trump simply called checkmate on the populace by taking advantage of 100+ years of precedent, law, and jurisprudence that perfectly teed up the opportunity.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
piva00 8mo ago
> What drives someone to feel emboldened to park their car in the middle of an ICE operation and then attempt to drive off after being told to stop? Protesting? Civil disobedience? Thought you had freedoms. Freedom means being met with an appropriate legal reaction in case your acts are illegal, not death. I struggle to understand how you feel that in a free society people can't react to perceived injustices, and act in protest of it. A free society doesn't force everyone to bow down to the powers that be for fear of injury or death.
SetTheorist 8mo ago
You are explicitly saying that you feel more in common with Taliban or Tren De Aragua than with someone who wishes to exercise their Constitutionally protected right to peacefully protest against unlawful actions by agents of the government? Also, I am confused why you think that allegedly spitting and/or kicking out lights is a justification for execution.
- mothballed 8mo ago
  I understand what they mean. Taliban, the people at the top are acting in a calculated and rational manner. That is why the US overthrew the Taliban to be replaced by the Taliban. They're not morons, and they are not impulsive at least at a high level. They are cold and calculated and know how to use calculated violence and appeal to the populace. You may dislike this is the case but with Taliban I feel this is indisputable, despite numerous tactical blunders on their end. Pretti looked more like a raging lunatic. He knew CBP/ICE were homicidal maniacs and the slightest thing will set them off. He knew that acting like that will be interpreted by them as a 'shot at the King.' His actions looked impulsive and ultimately threw his life away getting very little for what he traded. And he basically submitted his head for execution after letting himself be disarmed, and I'm left wondering -- what was the point? No one wants to be like the guy swinging at tail lights and spitting like a toddler with a cosmetic accessory gun tucked in their waistband which they then surrendered and offered their head for execution -- and for what? Malcom X and MLK both had their followings. People like Pretti, never will.
  - deleted 8mo ago
    [deleted]
  - text0404 8mo ago
    The point is that you fight against injustice even in the face of state violence. Every movement that is a threat to existing power structures faces violence. Take a look at the labor movement in the US, the civil rights movement in the US, the anti-war movement in the US. > Malcom X and MLK both had their followings. People like Pretti, never will. The new movement is decentralized and doesn't rely on figureheads. Also, you should read the news today if you think Pretti's death was in vain: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=general%20strike&tbm=nws&aic=0 https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=general%20strike&tbm=n... You've offered a lot of criticism - what do you think the solution is?
nofriend 8mo ago
>regardless that there is broad disagreement and no charges Disagreement from a class that refuses to disagree with their leader and no charges from the administration that committed the crime. >What drives someone to feel emboldened to park their car in the middle of an ICE operation and then attempt to drive off after being told to stop? Presumably they thought the problem was that they were in the way, for which driving off would resolve. >What drives someone to run around spitting and kicking out lights on an ICE vehicle? The purpose of sending ICE there was to intimidate people, and dear leader was quite open about that. So we might rephrase the question as "why does a deliberate intimidation attempt lead people to feel intimidated?" >It's like I can understand why someone is a sports fan, despite not following sports myself. I can fully understand, although I don't support, why someone would join the Taliban or Tren De Aragua or whatever other group. I can understand those things. But I still struggle to understand the above. Really? So then think of politics like sport, with the dems and repubs being two teams, and ICE being like fans from one team, and protesters are fans of the other, and they go out in the street to support their side. Now imagine that instead of your team losing being completely inconsequential, it could lead to you being poorer, your rights being taken away, etc. Now you understand politics, congratulations.
eviks 8mo ago
> What drives someone to feel emboldened to park their car in the middle of an ICE operation and then attempt to drive off after being told to stop? Maybe an order by another agent to drive off? But also, it's not hard to see why you can't understand it - because none of the questions are based in reality, all the descriptions are false/twisted, it's like "I don't understand why the fans of that team that lost celebrate the win" when in reality the team won, that's why, easy to understand
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
_DeadFred_ 8mo ago
America started with the Boston Tea Party. If you don't like our allergy to authority that considers itself above us and our God given rights, you are free to leave.

walletdrainer 8mo ago

>no charges This seems a bit disingenuous

JayNitram 8mo ago

Empathy, that is what you appear to be missing in your equation. If I see someone about to chuck a baby off a cliff, I hope I step out of my normal comfort zone and do something. In that case it is probably pretty clear, and this one seems grey for some people, but for others, and myself include, ICE is affecting people's lives in ways that is unacceptable and we need to do something.

kreetx 8mo ago
[flagged]
- JayNitram 8mo ago
  Streeeeeeeetch, but good on you, keep up whatever it is you are attempting.
  - kreetx 8mo ago
    (to the sibling, too) What did you see happen then? Here: https://youtu.be/NCfv1cWtpvg?t=66 https://youtu.be/NCfv1cWtpvg?t=66
    - JayNitram 8mo ago
      Masked people rushing a car and drawing weapons and the driver panicking. Now ask me who appears to escalate the entire situation. Or what the actual penalty for impeding a lane of traffic is.
      - kreetx 8mo ago
        From what I've read, there was some kind of community watch and/or protest going on for ICE there, patrol cars, etc. But you're saying she had the suspicion that a few masked thugs had accidentally gotten lost within the police operation?
        JayNitram 8mo ago
        We are too far past the fascist crap too entertain this stupidity. I get it, you don't see a problem with any of it. Now go enjoy your dumb little life and I am going to go back trying to find ways to help make friends and family I have in the Minneapolis area feel safe again.
        kreetx 8mo ago
        Everything is more nuanced than your all-or-nothing any of it designation. You say that there was no getaway performed and the person trying to drive away wasn't aware that it was law enforcement that had ordered her to stay. Sure, she didn't deserve to die. But if you charge towards an officer, or reasonably appear to do so, then these things happen. Why didn't she peacefully stay put instead?
- andrewjf 8mo ago
  Propaganda. The actual videos do not support this conclusion at all. You’re being lied to.
  - kreetx 8mo ago
    I've seen the actual videos. While tragic, then she was trying to drive away, not obeying the approaching officer's orders. At that moment, the officer towards she was driving was the one that shot her. It also seemed that right before the event she was doing some kind of traffic regulation there which is why the officers approached her.
    - mindslight 8mo ago
      You can't start at the point the ICE agent had already set up his pretext to execute her. That's equivalent to equating legality with morality, which doesn't work when talking about what ought to be. Rather you have to examine the entire situation, which was an extreme escalation by ICE in response to what was essentially protesting.
      - kreetx 8mo ago
        There was no pretext to execute her. It's when she started driving (even spun the wheels I think) towards the officer were shots fired. In your mind, does police getaway equate with protesting now?
        mindslight 8mo ago
        As I said, you're starting at a point where the ICE agent had already set up his pretext to execute her.
        kreetx 8mo ago
        And as I said, there was no pretext to execute her. (Or you need to explain what the word "pretext" means to you, and perhaps also "execute".)

GJim 8mo ago

> park their car in the middle of an ICE operation and then attempt to drive off after being told to stop? > run around spitting and kicking out lights on an ICE vehicle? Do you seriously believe pulling a gun and killing somebody is an appropriate response to such actions? Because if you do, that is a dangerously authoritan attitude.

mothballed 8mo ago
Why would they find it inappropriate? It's fun for them and they're guaranteed to get away with it. All the opposition does is vote harder and ask nicely that the state not do it again. Worst case, someone sues and it's paid by OPM. But having been the subject of brutality by CBP, I can tell you it's almost impossible to find a lawyer (all the ones I talked to had already tried and lost so many times they wouldn't take a case, though maybe you have better luck now since immigration law is in vogue) and if you do your chances of overcoming supremacy clause and immunities are next to nill. (Lady in a more egregious case but otherwise similar facts to mine, was raped via hand because the argument was there was drugs up there -- she lost even though there weren't any). The reason why Trump chose ICE/CBP as his gestapo is precisely because they have excellent overlap of both being largely carved out from constitutional protections via both precedent and their situation as an executive nominally border facing police and the fact they answer to POTUS and can function as an army without running afoul of posse comitatus. Trump simply called checkmate on the populace by taking advantage of 100+ years of precedent, law, and jurisprudence that perfectly teed up the opportunity.

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]

piva00 8mo ago

> What drives someone to feel emboldened to park their car in the middle of an ICE operation and then attempt to drive off after being told to stop? Protesting? Civil disobedience? Thought you had freedoms. Freedom means being met with an appropriate legal reaction in case your acts are illegal, not death. I struggle to understand how you feel that in a free society people can't react to perceived injustices, and act in protest of it. A free society doesn't force everyone to bow down to the powers that be for fear of injury or death.

SetTheorist 8mo ago

You are explicitly saying that you feel more in common with Taliban or Tren De Aragua than with someone who wishes to exercise their Constitutionally protected right to peacefully protest against unlawful actions by agents of the government? Also, I am confused why you think that allegedly spitting and/or kicking out lights is a justification for execution.

mothballed 8mo ago
I understand what they mean. Taliban, the people at the top are acting in a calculated and rational manner. That is why the US overthrew the Taliban to be replaced by the Taliban. They're not morons, and they are not impulsive at least at a high level. They are cold and calculated and know how to use calculated violence and appeal to the populace. You may dislike this is the case but with Taliban I feel this is indisputable, despite numerous tactical blunders on their end. Pretti looked more like a raging lunatic. He knew CBP/ICE were homicidal maniacs and the slightest thing will set them off. He knew that acting like that will be interpreted by them as a 'shot at the King.' His actions looked impulsive and ultimately threw his life away getting very little for what he traded. And he basically submitted his head for execution after letting himself be disarmed, and I'm left wondering -- what was the point? No one wants to be like the guy swinging at tail lights and spitting like a toddler with a cosmetic accessory gun tucked in their waistband which they then surrendered and offered their head for execution -- and for what? Malcom X and MLK both had their followings. People like Pretti, never will.
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- text0404 8mo ago
  The point is that you fight against injustice even in the face of state violence. Every movement that is a threat to existing power structures faces violence. Take a look at the labor movement in the US, the civil rights movement in the US, the anti-war movement in the US. > Malcom X and MLK both had their followings. People like Pretti, never will. The new movement is decentralized and doesn't rely on figureheads. Also, you should read the news today if you think Pretti's death was in vain: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=general%20strike&tbm=nws&aic=0 https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=general%20strike&tbm=n... You've offered a lot of criticism - what do you think the solution is?

nofriend 8mo ago

>regardless that there is broad disagreement and no charges Disagreement from a class that refuses to disagree with their leader and no charges from the administration that committed the crime. >What drives someone to feel emboldened to park their car in the middle of an ICE operation and then attempt to drive off after being told to stop? Presumably they thought the problem was that they were in the way, for which driving off would resolve. >What drives someone to run around spitting and kicking out lights on an ICE vehicle? The purpose of sending ICE there was to intimidate people, and dear leader was quite open about that. So we might rephrase the question as "why does a deliberate intimidation attempt lead people to feel intimidated?" >It's like I can understand why someone is a sports fan, despite not following sports myself. I can fully understand, although I don't support, why someone would join the Taliban or Tren De Aragua or whatever other group. I can understand those things. But I still struggle to understand the above. Really? So then think of politics like sport, with the dems and repubs being two teams, and ICE being like fans from one team, and protesters are fans of the other, and they go out in the street to support their side. Now imagine that instead of your team losing being completely inconsequential, it could lead to you being poorer, your rights being taken away, etc. Now you understand politics, congratulations.

eviks 8mo ago

> What drives someone to feel emboldened to park their car in the middle of an ICE operation and then attempt to drive off after being told to stop? Maybe an order by another agent to drive off? But also, it's not hard to see why you can't understand it - because none of the questions are based in reality, all the descriptions are false/twisted, it's like "I don't understand why the fans of that team that lost celebrate the win" when in reality the team won, that's why, easy to understand

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]

_DeadFred_ 8mo ago

America started with the Boston Tea Party. If you don't like our allergy to authority that considers itself above us and our God given rights, you are free to leave.