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> (a) happened with a hypothetical hardware platform released after the PS2 but before the PS3, with specs lying in between the two I would argue strongly that

> (a) happened with a hypothetical hardware platform released after the PS2 but before the PS3, with specs lying in between the two I would argue strongly that the weak hardware is why the PS2, and other old consoles, were so good, and that by improving the hardware you cannot replicate what they accomplished (which is why, indeed, newer consoles have never managed to be as iconic as older consoles). You can make an equally strong case that the Super Famicom is the best console of all time, with dozens of 10/10 games that stand the test of time. I think the limitations of the hardware played a pivotal role in both, as they demanded good stylistic decisions to create aesthetically appealing games with limited resources, and demanded a significant level of work into curating and optimizing the game design, because every aspect of the game consumed limited resources and therefore bad ideas had to be culled, leaving a well-polished remainder of the best ideas in a sort of Darwinian sense. > (b) resulted in a sort of standardization in the industry like what happened to the IBM PC and its market of clones, with other vendors continuing to manufacture semi-compatible units Unlike the PC market, the comprehensive list of "other vendors" is two entries long. Is it a more perfect world if Nintendo manufactures knockoff Playstations instead of its variety of unique consoles? I don't think so.

JoeyJoJoJr 9mo ago
This might be a nitpick, but I could probably only count 5-10 SNES games that would be considered 10/10 IMO, and not many that I think are worth sinking decent time into these days, compared to something like Burnout Revenge - a great game but certainly not a 10/10 game. Still, I do find the SNES library, and 16bit games in general, quite astounding from a creative and artistic perspective, but not so much from a player’s perspective.
- anonymous908213 9mo ago
  A Link to the Past, Super Mario World, Yoshi's Island, Kirby Super Star, Donkey Kong Country 1-3, Super Metroid, Megaman X series, Dragon Quest series, Final Fantasy series, Chrono Trigger, Earthbound... just off the top of my head, are all very much worth playing today.
  - deaddodo 9mo ago
    The Dragon Quest series, while beloved, is hardly the epitome of peak SNES gaming. It’s always been (purposefully) extremely conservative and dated in its design. If you’re gonna go for quality SNES RPGs that show the console shining, you’d be better off with Terranigma, the Final Fantasy series, Tales of Phantasia, Chrono Trigger, etc, etc.
    - anonymous908213 9mo ago
      There is indeed a very strong and deep library of JRPGs to recommend, but I strongly disagree that DQ is not among the best. I recently replayed two of them in the past two years and both were still 10/10 experiences for me. They are conservative, sure, but that's not a bad thing. One of the points I was making about limited hardware is that polished simplicity can trump overeager complexity, and I think the DQ games are a shining example of that.
      - deaddodo 9mo ago
        I love DQ. My point wasn’t that they were bad RPGs. Simply that they don’t fit within OP’s point. Most of them could just as easily be NES/SMS games with slightly tuned down graphics; they don’t push the SNES in any meaningful way. As mentioned, that’s an intentional decision and not intended as a slight.
        jasomill 9mo ago
        I get your point, but "slightly tuned down" is a bit hyperbolic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLUDMrmjgjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLUDMrmjgjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoyYtqi5u54 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoyYtqi5u54
        anonymous908213 9mo ago
        From the context of the conversation, it was clear they were talking about the Super Famicom entries, not saying that DQXI could be demoted to a Famicom game[1]. I don't really agree with them, although I didn't feel like continuing to belabour the point at the time. I think the SFC remakes of the Famicom DQ games (1-3) add an entirely new dimension to them. Despite their influential heritage, I do not think DQ 1-3 on the Famicom stand the test of time, and I don't think they're worth playing other than for the historical value of seeing how the genre developed. Whereas I think DQ 1-3 remakes on the Super Famicom conversely absolutely do hold up as top-notch experiences. [1] Although notably, they did release a demake of DQXI into a Super Famicom-style game!
- vimoses 9mo ago
  > This might be a nitpick, but I could probably only count 5-10 SNES games that would be considered 10/10 IMO firstly, this seems like a pretty flawed standard for evaluating a consoles library, no? but secondly, "5-10 10/10"s seems like a pretty good amount for any consoles library anyways, unless you value a "10/10" less than i guess i would
  - JoeyJoJoJr 9mo ago
    I’m not criticizing the library of SNES. I have very fond memories playing SNES games. It was more in response to the statement that there are dozens of 10/10 games on SNES. Let me clarify, there are not many 10/10 games on SNES (or any system for that matter), let alone dozens.
- anthk 9mo ago
  Between JRPG's, plataformers, SMK and Top Gears you can sum more than 20.
vlunkr 9mo ago
I love retro consoles as much as the next middle aged software developer, but realistically, the reason those consoles are so iconic is because we were children. Every console generation is that special generation for one group of kids. I do agree that sometimes limitations breed creativity, but that’s not the only thing that can make the magic work.
- anonymous908213 9mo ago
  I know it's easy to trot out "nostalgia", but do you not think it's possible that older games can genuinely be better than newer games? I very much think it is common to find such games, even games I had never played in my youth. There were bad games then too, of course, and good games now, but I think the ratio of hits was higher. Particularly now that modern game development is so sloppy. Microtransaction-infested games rule the world, and while the indie scene does still produce excellent gems, most of them tend to be significantly less polished and rougher around the edges.
  - youngtaff 9mo ago
    IMV Super Monkey Ball on the GameCube is way better than any of it's successors
  - vlunkr 9mo ago
    Yeah I think that individual retro games can be incredible and stand the test of time. For me Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night are timeless. As a whole though, it’s hard to measure. Today we have microtransactions, in the past we had games that threw in one bullshit level so you couldn’t beat it during a rental. (Lookin at you battletoads) and bad movie tie-ins, lazy arcade ports, etc. There’s always going to be trash. One thing retro games obviously don’t have is hindsight. Shovel Knight feels like the best NES games, but lacks crap like lives and continues, because it learned from later games like Dark Souls that you can make death punishing without making it un-fun. Hollow knight builds on my favorite games with a couple of decades of lessons on how to make platformers more interesting and less frustrating.
    - 9mo ago
trashb 9mo ago
This reminded me of the following quote "Limitation breeds creativity", and therefore the PS2's limitations where instrumental to it's success. The PS2 in may ways was a great improvement on the PS1 however it was not easy to develop for and could do certain things very well, other things not so well. One example is the graphics due to the unusual architecture of the Emotion Engine (gpu). I think this forced the developers to consider what their games really required and where they wanted to spend the development effort, one of the key ingredients for good game design. Additionally the release hype of the PS2 was quite big and the graphics that where achievable where very good at the time, so developers wanted to go through the development pains to create a game for this console. Not to forget besides the mountain of great titles for the PS2 there is also a mountain of flopped games that faded into obscurity.
Someone 9mo ago
> Unlike the PC market, the comprehensive list of "other vendors" is two entries long Before there was “a sort of standardization in the industry” the comprehensive list of “PC vendors” was one entry long. Years before that, there were several times there was “a sort of standardization in the industry”, both of which led to there being many vendors. - the Altair bus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-100_bus#IEEE-696_Standard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-100_bus#IEEE-696_Standard: “In May 1978, George Morrow and Howard Fullmer published a "Proposed Standard for the S-100 Bus" noting that 150 vendors were already supplying products for the S-100 Bus” - CP/M. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP/M#Derivatives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP/M#Derivatives: “CP/M eventually became the de facto standard and the dominant operating system for microcomputers, in combination with the S-100 bus computers. This computer platform was widely used in business through the late 1970s and into the mid-1980s.”

JoeyJoJoJr 9mo ago

This might be a nitpick, but I could probably only count 5-10 SNES games that would be considered 10/10 IMO, and not many that I think are worth sinking decent time into these days, compared to something like Burnout Revenge - a great game but certainly not a 10/10 game. Still, I do find the SNES library, and 16bit games in general, quite astounding from a creative and artistic perspective, but not so much from a player’s perspective.

anonymous908213 9mo ago
A Link to the Past, Super Mario World, Yoshi's Island, Kirby Super Star, Donkey Kong Country 1-3, Super Metroid, Megaman X series, Dragon Quest series, Final Fantasy series, Chrono Trigger, Earthbound... just off the top of my head, are all very much worth playing today.
- deaddodo 9mo ago
  The Dragon Quest series, while beloved, is hardly the epitome of peak SNES gaming. It’s always been (purposefully) extremely conservative and dated in its design. If you’re gonna go for quality SNES RPGs that show the console shining, you’d be better off with Terranigma, the Final Fantasy series, Tales of Phantasia, Chrono Trigger, etc, etc.
  - anonymous908213 9mo ago
    There is indeed a very strong and deep library of JRPGs to recommend, but I strongly disagree that DQ is not among the best. I recently replayed two of them in the past two years and both were still 10/10 experiences for me. They are conservative, sure, but that's not a bad thing. One of the points I was making about limited hardware is that polished simplicity can trump overeager complexity, and I think the DQ games are a shining example of that.
    - deaddodo 9mo ago
      I love DQ. My point wasn’t that they were bad RPGs. Simply that they don’t fit within OP’s point. Most of them could just as easily be NES/SMS games with slightly tuned down graphics; they don’t push the SNES in any meaningful way. As mentioned, that’s an intentional decision and not intended as a slight.
      - jasomill 9mo ago
        I get your point, but "slightly tuned down" is a bit hyperbolic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLUDMrmjgjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLUDMrmjgjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoyYtqi5u54 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoyYtqi5u54
        anonymous908213 9mo ago
        From the context of the conversation, it was clear they were talking about the Super Famicom entries, not saying that DQXI could be demoted to a Famicom game[1]. I don't really agree with them, although I didn't feel like continuing to belabour the point at the time. I think the SFC remakes of the Famicom DQ games (1-3) add an entirely new dimension to them. Despite their influential heritage, I do not think DQ 1-3 on the Famicom stand the test of time, and I don't think they're worth playing other than for the historical value of seeing how the genre developed. Whereas I think DQ 1-3 remakes on the Super Famicom conversely absolutely do hold up as top-notch experiences. [1] Although notably, they did release a demake of DQXI into a Super Famicom-style game!
vimoses 9mo ago
> This might be a nitpick, but I could probably only count 5-10 SNES games that would be considered 10/10 IMO firstly, this seems like a pretty flawed standard for evaluating a consoles library, no? but secondly, "5-10 10/10"s seems like a pretty good amount for any consoles library anyways, unless you value a "10/10" less than i guess i would
- JoeyJoJoJr 9mo ago
  I’m not criticizing the library of SNES. I have very fond memories playing SNES games. It was more in response to the statement that there are dozens of 10/10 games on SNES. Let me clarify, there are not many 10/10 games on SNES (or any system for that matter), let alone dozens.
anthk 9mo ago
Between JRPG's, plataformers, SMK and Top Gears you can sum more than 20.

vlunkr 9mo ago

I love retro consoles as much as the next middle aged software developer, but realistically, the reason those consoles are so iconic is because we were children. Every console generation is that special generation for one group of kids. I do agree that sometimes limitations breed creativity, but that’s not the only thing that can make the magic work.

anonymous908213 9mo ago
I know it's easy to trot out "nostalgia", but do you not think it's possible that older games can genuinely be better than newer games? I very much think it is common to find such games, even games I had never played in my youth. There were bad games then too, of course, and good games now, but I think the ratio of hits was higher. Particularly now that modern game development is so sloppy. Microtransaction-infested games rule the world, and while the indie scene does still produce excellent gems, most of them tend to be significantly less polished and rougher around the edges.
- youngtaff 9mo ago
  IMV Super Monkey Ball on the GameCube is way better than any of it's successors
- vlunkr 9mo ago
  Yeah I think that individual retro games can be incredible and stand the test of time. For me Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night are timeless. As a whole though, it’s hard to measure. Today we have microtransactions, in the past we had games that threw in one bullshit level so you couldn’t beat it during a rental. (Lookin at you battletoads) and bad movie tie-ins, lazy arcade ports, etc. There’s always going to be trash. One thing retro games obviously don’t have is hindsight. Shovel Knight feels like the best NES games, but lacks crap like lives and continues, because it learned from later games like Dark Souls that you can make death punishing without making it un-fun. Hollow knight builds on my favorite games with a couple of decades of lessons on how to make platformers more interesting and less frustrating.
  - 9mo ago

trashb 9mo ago

This reminded me of the following quote "Limitation breeds creativity", and therefore the PS2's limitations where instrumental to it's success. The PS2 in may ways was a great improvement on the PS1 however it was not easy to develop for and could do certain things very well, other things not so well. One example is the graphics due to the unusual architecture of the Emotion Engine (gpu). I think this forced the developers to consider what their games really required and where they wanted to spend the development effort, one of the key ingredients for good game design. Additionally the release hype of the PS2 was quite big and the graphics that where achievable where very good at the time, so developers wanted to go through the development pains to create a game for this console. Not to forget besides the mountain of great titles for the PS2 there is also a mountain of flopped games that faded into obscurity.

Someone 9mo ago

> Unlike the PC market, the comprehensive list of "other vendors" is two entries long Before there was “a sort of standardization in the industry” the comprehensive list of “PC vendors” was one entry long. Years before that, there were several times there was “a sort of standardization in the industry”, both of which led to there being many vendors. - the Altair bus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-100_bus#IEEE-696_Standard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-100_bus#IEEE-696_Standard: “In May 1978, George Morrow and Howard Fullmer published a "Proposed Standard for the S-100 Bus" noting that 150 vendors were already supplying products for the S-100 Bus” - CP/M. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP/M#Derivatives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP/M#Derivatives: “CP/M eventually became the de facto standard and the dominant operating system for microcomputers, in combination with the S-100 bus computers. This computer platform was widely used in business through the late 1970s and into the mid-1980s.”