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> If you consider that it's perfectly fine for an ally to threaten to invade I don't consider it fine, but I don't think this means we're also not allies. I un

by ericmay 9mo ago

> If you consider that it's perfectly fine for an ally to threaten to invade I don't consider it fine, but I don't think this means we're also not allies. I understand the reaction. I largely disagree with our actions. The US would still come to the defense of France, Germany, UK, &c. We are still in NATO, we still participate in and lead military exercises, we still have troops stationed throughout NATO-aligned countries, and more. > Back to Europe, I don't remember hearing that China threatened Europe militarily. Ha, well they're not threatening Europe they are actively providing assistance in terms of materials and equipment and other support to Russia as it continues to wage war against Ukraine and prepare for a broader war against Europe. Oh and sprinkle in some hacking, and disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups too. The main criticism I have here of the EU is that they seem to think the US should come and help Europe, provide assistance against Russia, &c. but when it comes to China all of a sudden it's "they didn't attack us, they aren't threatening us, &c" - you can't have it both ways. If you don't think China is a problem or whatever, you can't blame the United States for pulling forces and support from Europe when the US feels threatened by China. Russia isn't threatening us, not going to attack us, so maybe we should just do some good trade deals with Russia and unlock resources. This is exactly how Europe is behaving with respect to China.

palata 9mo ago
I think you misunderstand the feeling in Europe. > The US would still come to the defense of France, Germany, UK, Pretty sure many Europeans genuinely doubt it. It's not only Greenland (though that is an actual military threat), it's also that the US government (not only Trump) has been saying repeatedly (many times to EU governments, in front of journalists) that he may not do it. Or he may, depending on how he feels on that day. In went from "The US may not protect a NATO member anymore" to "Actually we're thinking about invading you". Maybe you see that as "words", but I strongly believe that the Europeans see that as very real threats. > sprinkle in some hacking, and disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups too. The US has been documented to spy on EU politicians forever. Also to interfere with other countries (including European countries) for their own interest. And when it comes to disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups... It's not only members of the US government who have openly been doing that, but also oligarchs like Elon Musk. > The main criticism I have here of the EU is that they seem to think the US should come and help Europe When the Europeans complain about the US now, it's very far from that. They think that the US should not behave like an enemy. And that's a wake-up call because until recently, they knew that the US was "interfering in their own interest", bullying and abusing their dominant position, but it was accepted "because it's an ally". But suddenly they explicitly tell to Europe that they are not allies. What remains? > but when it comes to China all of a sudden it's That's another thing: I don't think that Europeans see China as an ally. But this hasn't changed dramatically in the last year. When people say they would rather buy Chinese products (and it's not only Europe, look at Canada and probably others), they react to the fact that they feel they have been betrayed by the US. And when they say that, US citizen seem to genuinely not understand because "they never considered that they were friends". Well guess what, the Europeans thought it was a friendship. Of course now they're disappointed.
- ericmay 9mo ago
  > I think you misunderstand the feeling in Europe. No, I understand it. Thanks. I disagree with it - that's different. > Pretty sure many Europeans genuinely doubt it. Let's just get to the point: do you want the United States to leave military bases in Europe and withdraw from NATO and other security commitments related to Europe? Because you and others seem to keep "doubting" it, so maybe we should just do what you think we're going to do then. > The US has been documented to spy on EU politicians forever. The EU spies on the US too. This is common practice. Don't be naive. > That's another thing: I don't think that Europeans see China as an ally. But this hasn't changed dramatically in the last year. Right... of course "China isn't an ally". But the EU is happy to do trade deals with China (which won't last by the way, once the products that were going to the US start going to Europe and grind Germany's manufacturing capabilities into dust while China continues to limit your access to their market) even when they are actively helping Russia invade Ukraine. Time and time again folks like yourself and others sit here even in these comments and say things like "China isn't doing anything to Europe" and "the US is supporting Russia" and then you act surprised when Americans say fine, maybe we will support Russia when we've sitting here giving tens of billions of dollars in equipment to Ukraine, selling them weapons we also need, providing intelligence and logistical support, including active targeting of Russian assets in Russia, seizing Russian oil tankers funding their war economy, which Europe was too weak to do until the US took the lead, maintaining tends of thousands of soldiers, aircraft, tanks, and more in Europe including in the Baltic states, Romania, &c, and more. Maybe you and others who feel like you do should be more introspective about how the EU has behaved, and how you yourself sounds to Americans. When I read comments like this, and keep in mind I think the US should have went straight to war against Russia when they invaded, it makes me want to write my Congressman and tell them to stop supporting Ukraine and leave NATO. But maybe that's your goal too. :)
  - palata 9mo ago
    This all honestly sounds sociopathic. You cannot disagree with the feelings of someone else. Someone is sad, they are sad, period. This is "being a human 101". "Since you already feel hurt, it makes me want to hurt you, but maybe that's your goal". You actually scare me. Let's stop this here please.
piva00 9mo ago
> I don't consider it fine, but I don't think this means we're also not allies. I understand the reaction. I largely disagree with our actions. The US would still come to the defense of France, Germany, UK, &c. We are still in NATO, we still participate in and lead military exercises, we still have troops stationed throughout NATO-aligned countries, and more. As someone living in Europe: I don't trust the USA would, that's the reality now, there were ties spanning decades which I thought would take a lot more effort from any US administration to break but alas, it's been broken, I simply do not trust any of that right now. The US definitely wouldn't come to the defence of the Baltics which would be the frontline of any start of Russian aggression towards the EU. Sorry to say but this is not the reality anymore. > Oh and sprinkle in some hacking, and disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups too. The US admin is cozying up with many far-right groups in Europe as well, given that China hasn't directly threatened to annex any territory from European countries we can see how between US vs China, China is becoming the more reliable partner. It's a quantifiable measure, they are predictable, it's easier to deal with. > If you don't think China is a problem or whatever, you can't blame the United States for pulling forces and support from Europe when the US feels threatened by China. Russia isn't threatening us, not going to attack us, so maybe we should just do some good trade deals with Russia and unlock resources. This is exactly how Europe is behaving with respect to China. How exactly is China threatening the USA? You all got into this China pivot because of how economically powerful China has become, it's just Red Scare 2.0 but against a hyper-capitalist country with a veneer of "communism" from the party's name.\ Because Russia is directly invading a country in our continent, directly threatening European countries with nukes, tell me more on how the USA is threatened by China. Maybe you should do good deals with Russia if that's how you think, you're displaying exactly the reason why we in Europe don't really feel keen on dealing with the USA anymore.
- ericmay 9mo ago
  > As someone living in Europe: I don't trust the USA would, that's the reality now, there were ties spanning decades which I thought would take a lot more effort from any US administration to break but alas, it's been broken, I simply do not trust any of that right now. The US definitely wouldn't come to the defence of the Baltics which would be the frontline of any start of Russian aggression towards the EU. Feel free to read more about literal US troops deployed on the frontline in the Baltics, and in Eastern Europe: https://www.cfr.org/articles/where-are-us-forces-deployed-europe https://www.cfr.org/articles/where-are-us-forces-deployed-eu... > Sorry to say but this is not the reality anymore. Factually incorrect. > The US admin is cozying up with many far-right groups in Europe as well, given that China hasn't directly threatened to annex any territory from European countries we can see how between US vs China, China is becoming the more reliable partner. It's a quantifiable measure, they are predictable, it's easier to deal with. Ok so if the US is cozying up with many far-right groups in Europe as well, that means the US and China are operating the same. Ok that's neutral. The US has threatened to annex Greenland, which, let's be honest was most likely an extremely poor, stupid, and bombastic negotiating tactic as the island is effectively undefended and if the EU is going to own it they need to increase defense spending there to levels that are satisfactory to the United States. And while I disagree completely with the Trump admin's approach, getting really angry about that one thing, and then all of sudden pretending that is somehow worse than the Chinese helping Russia physically attack Ukraine is beyond bizarre to me. But maybe that's kind of the point - EU doesn't actually care much about Ukraine. > How exactly is China threatening the USA? Are you really not aware of the geopolitical confrontation between China and the United States, or are you being facetious? > Maybe you should do good deals with Russia if that's how you think, you're displaying exactly the reason why we in Europe don't really feel keen on dealing with the USA anymore. You're displaying the exact reason why folks in the USA have stopped caring about Europe.

by ericmay 9mo ago

palata 9mo ago

I think you misunderstand the feeling in Europe. > The US would still come to the defense of France, Germany, UK, Pretty sure many Europeans genuinely doubt it. It's not only Greenland (though that is an actual military threat), it's also that the US government (not only Trump) has been saying repeatedly (many times to EU governments, in front of journalists) that he may not do it. Or he may, depending on how he feels on that day. In went from "The US may not protect a NATO member anymore" to "Actually we're thinking about invading you". Maybe you see that as "words", but I strongly believe that the Europeans see that as very real threats. > sprinkle in some hacking, and disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups too. The US has been documented to spy on EU politicians forever. Also to interfere with other countries (including European countries) for their own interest. And when it comes to disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups... It's not only members of the US government who have openly been doing that, but also oligarchs like Elon Musk. > The main criticism I have here of the EU is that they seem to think the US should come and help Europe When the Europeans complain about the US now, it's very far from that. They think that the US should not behave like an enemy. And that's a wake-up call because until recently, they knew that the US was "interfering in their own interest", bullying and abusing their dominant position, but it was accepted "because it's an ally". But suddenly they explicitly tell to Europe that they are not allies. What remains? > but when it comes to China all of a sudden it's That's another thing: I don't think that Europeans see China as an ally. But this hasn't changed dramatically in the last year. When people say they would rather buy Chinese products (and it's not only Europe, look at Canada and probably others), they react to the fact that they feel they have been betrayed by the US. And when they say that, US citizen seem to genuinely not understand because "they never considered that they were friends". Well guess what, the Europeans thought it was a friendship. Of course now they're disappointed.

ericmay 9mo ago
> I think you misunderstand the feeling in Europe. No, I understand it. Thanks. I disagree with it - that's different. > Pretty sure many Europeans genuinely doubt it. Let's just get to the point: do you want the United States to leave military bases in Europe and withdraw from NATO and other security commitments related to Europe? Because you and others seem to keep "doubting" it, so maybe we should just do what you think we're going to do then. > The US has been documented to spy on EU politicians forever. The EU spies on the US too. This is common practice. Don't be naive. > That's another thing: I don't think that Europeans see China as an ally. But this hasn't changed dramatically in the last year. Right... of course "China isn't an ally". But the EU is happy to do trade deals with China (which won't last by the way, once the products that were going to the US start going to Europe and grind Germany's manufacturing capabilities into dust while China continues to limit your access to their market) even when they are actively helping Russia invade Ukraine. Time and time again folks like yourself and others sit here even in these comments and say things like "China isn't doing anything to Europe" and "the US is supporting Russia" and then you act surprised when Americans say fine, maybe we will support Russia when we've sitting here giving tens of billions of dollars in equipment to Ukraine, selling them weapons we also need, providing intelligence and logistical support, including active targeting of Russian assets in Russia, seizing Russian oil tankers funding their war economy, which Europe was too weak to do until the US took the lead, maintaining tends of thousands of soldiers, aircraft, tanks, and more in Europe including in the Baltic states, Romania, &c, and more. Maybe you and others who feel like you do should be more introspective about how the EU has behaved, and how you yourself sounds to Americans. When I read comments like this, and keep in mind I think the US should have went straight to war against Russia when they invaded, it makes me want to write my Congressman and tell them to stop supporting Ukraine and leave NATO. But maybe that's your goal too. :)
- palata 9mo ago
  This all honestly sounds sociopathic. You cannot disagree with the feelings of someone else. Someone is sad, they are sad, period. This is "being a human 101". "Since you already feel hurt, it makes me want to hurt you, but maybe that's your goal". You actually scare me. Let's stop this here please.

piva00 9mo ago

> I don't consider it fine, but I don't think this means we're also not allies. I understand the reaction. I largely disagree with our actions. The US would still come to the defense of France, Germany, UK, &c. We are still in NATO, we still participate in and lead military exercises, we still have troops stationed throughout NATO-aligned countries, and more. As someone living in Europe: I don't trust the USA would, that's the reality now, there were ties spanning decades which I thought would take a lot more effort from any US administration to break but alas, it's been broken, I simply do not trust any of that right now. The US definitely wouldn't come to the defence of the Baltics which would be the frontline of any start of Russian aggression towards the EU. Sorry to say but this is not the reality anymore. > Oh and sprinkle in some hacking, and disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups too. The US admin is cozying up with many far-right groups in Europe as well, given that China hasn't directly threatened to annex any territory from European countries we can see how between US vs China, China is becoming the more reliable partner. It's a quantifiable measure, they are predictable, it's easier to deal with. > If you don't think China is a problem or whatever, you can't blame the United States for pulling forces and support from Europe when the US feels threatened by China. Russia isn't threatening us, not going to attack us, so maybe we should just do some good trade deals with Russia and unlock resources. This is exactly how Europe is behaving with respect to China. How exactly is China threatening the USA? You all got into this China pivot because of how economically powerful China has become, it's just Red Scare 2.0 but against a hyper-capitalist country with a veneer of "communism" from the party's name.\ Because Russia is directly invading a country in our continent, directly threatening European countries with nukes, tell me more on how the USA is threatened by China. Maybe you should do good deals with Russia if that's how you think, you're displaying exactly the reason why we in Europe don't really feel keen on dealing with the USA anymore.

ericmay 9mo ago
> As someone living in Europe: I don't trust the USA would, that's the reality now, there were ties spanning decades which I thought would take a lot more effort from any US administration to break but alas, it's been broken, I simply do not trust any of that right now. The US definitely wouldn't come to the defence of the Baltics which would be the frontline of any start of Russian aggression towards the EU. Feel free to read more about literal US troops deployed on the frontline in the Baltics, and in Eastern Europe: https://www.cfr.org/articles/where-are-us-forces-deployed-europe https://www.cfr.org/articles/where-are-us-forces-deployed-eu... > Sorry to say but this is not the reality anymore. Factually incorrect. > The US admin is cozying up with many far-right groups in Europe as well, given that China hasn't directly threatened to annex any territory from European countries we can see how between US vs China, China is becoming the more reliable partner. It's a quantifiable measure, they are predictable, it's easier to deal with. Ok so if the US is cozying up with many far-right groups in Europe as well, that means the US and China are operating the same. Ok that's neutral. The US has threatened to annex Greenland, which, let's be honest was most likely an extremely poor, stupid, and bombastic negotiating tactic as the island is effectively undefended and if the EU is going to own it they need to increase defense spending there to levels that are satisfactory to the United States. And while I disagree completely with the Trump admin's approach, getting really angry about that one thing, and then all of sudden pretending that is somehow worse than the Chinese helping Russia physically attack Ukraine is beyond bizarre to me. But maybe that's kind of the point - EU doesn't actually care much about Ukraine. > How exactly is China threatening the USA? Are you really not aware of the geopolitical confrontation between China and the United States, or are you being facetious? > Maybe you should do good deals with Russia if that's how you think, you're displaying exactly the reason why we in Europe don't really feel keen on dealing with the USA anymore. You're displaying the exact reason why folks in the USA have stopped caring about Europe.