6 ms·

Sending a Weather Balloon to Space

74 points by hartleybrody 14y ago

jlgreco 14y ago
Consumer GPS devices do not work above 18 km, so unfortunately even without the cell reception limitations he would not have been able to track the balloon during it's entire voyage. (They also don't work when travelling faster than 1000 mph. I believe the limitations are to prevent consumer GPS hardware from being used in things like missiles.) I hope he manages to recover everything alright.
- coin 14y ago
  It's actually 1000 knots (1200 mph). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoCom#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoCom#Legacy
  - tomkinstinch 14y ago
    It's supposed to be 1000 knots when above 60k ft. Due to laziness/cost, many GPS modules take it to mean any speed above 60k feet. Here's a list of ones that will work above 60k feet: http://showcase.netins.net/web/wallio/GPSrcvrsvs60kft.htm http://showcase.netins.net/web/wallio/GPSrcvrsvs60kft.htm
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    Ah yes, good catch. I knew it was something like that; I always forget knots are not mph.
- ChuckMcM 14y ago
  Yes, that was what I was thinking, over altitude, GPS shuts off. Also I was wondering if freezing the crap out of the batteries might affect their overall charge capacity. Reading the antics of the folks over that theregister.co.uk and their high altitude experiments (granted its mostly a lot of puns around LOHAN) what struck me was they proceed very methodically in their planning. A reasonable guide for anyone wanted to get into the space balloon business I think.
  - coin 14y ago
    The GPS receiver doesn't shutoff. The requirement is to stop tracking.
  - eddie_the_head 14y ago
    Are these COCOM limitations based in the hardware or software of the GPS devices by the manufacturers? If it's in the software, are there not free and opensource firmwares out there that can go around such limitations?
- Xcelerate 14y ago
  Interesting. I've always been curious if there were limits on what these things would register. I had a speedometer app on my phone and I remember it registering about 460 mph on one of my flights.
- coffeecheque 14y ago
  There are some manufacturers that take those limits to be over 60K feet AND the mph limit. Others assume it to be OR. Spark Fun sells GPS modules which can be programmed, and interfaced with telemetry systems that send data back over radio so you can get it the entire time. They talk about GPS devices being "altitude safe". That seems to mean they work over 60K.
beforebeta 14y ago
just curious, is it legal to just send a balloon up in the air? considering there are so many different kinds of planes flying around, wouldn't you need clearance from the FAA or other regulatory authorities before doing this?
- rabidonrails 14y ago
  here's a good start for answers http://www.stratostar.net/faq/#faq1 http://www.stratostar.net/faq/#faq1
- jlgreco 14y ago
  It seems if you keep the payload under 6 pounds, and abide by a few other limitations, free balloons are a-okay as far as the FAA is concerned. http://www.chem.hawaii.edu/uham/part101.html http://www.chem.hawaii.edu/uham/part101.html
  - tomkinstinch 14y ago
    If you're near an airport, it's still probably a good idea to notify the FAA that you'll be doing a launch.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      Indeed. It certainly cannot hurt to ask them.
  - plantain 14y ago
    Read a little closer... (a) No person may operate an unmanned free balloon unless- (1) It is equipped with at least two payload cut-down systems or devices that operate independently of each other; (2) At least two methods, systems, devices, or combinations thereof, that function independently of each other, are employed for terminating the flight of the balloon envelope; and (3) The balloon envelope is equipped with a radar reflective device(s) or material that will present an echo to surface radar operating in the 200 MHz to 2700 MHz frequency range. <snip> (a) Prelaunch notice : Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate an unmanned free balloon unless, within 6 to 24 hours before beginning the operation, he gives the following information to the FAA ATC facility that is nearest to the place of intended operation: (a) Each person operating an unmanned free balloon shall: (1) Unless ATC requires otherwise, monitor the course of the balloon and record its position at least every two hours; and (2) Forward any balloon position reports requested by ATC.
rabidonrails 14y ago
Wish I could help. I'll be looking for updates to this story with fingers crossed on capturing that meteor shower!
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
vgurgov 14y ago
Its truly amazing to see how far few hundred bucks can get you this days, but can we please stop calling these stratosphere launches 'sending to space'? Is it just me or 'sending balloon to space' sounds like joke? Seems launching another one(or even few) could be cheaper than searching for this one...
- ChuckMcM 14y ago
  Well there is the convention that space starts at 100km up [1] but the atmosphere extends much higher just getting thinner and thinner. For a lot of people space starts when the sky is black during the 'day time' and you can see the curvature of the Earth, but of course that occurs much sooner, like 31km (~100,000') Balloons can reach 100,000' (Baumgartner jumped from 125,000' for example) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_line http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_line
- zik 14y ago
  The definition of "near space" says it starts at 60,000ft.
tomkinstinch 14y ago
The amateur radio club at my alma mater launched a high altitude balloon last year, and used an APRS transmitter to send back coordinates: http://www.collegearc.com/arhab/index.php http://www.collegearc.com/arhab/index.php Their flickr page has a bunch of pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/62621941@N02/sets/72157626674875178/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/62621941@N02/sets/7215762667487...
tzs 14y ago
Here's a list of some GPS modules that correctly implement the 18 km altitude, 515 m/s speed restriction using a logical AND, not a logical OR, and so are useful for high altitude ballooning: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:gps_modules http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:gps_modules Here's another: http://www.byonics.com/tinytrak/gps.php http://www.byonics.com/tinytrak/gps.php
jgrahamc 14y ago
Argh. As someone who's done this and is actively involved in the UKHAS (http://ukhas.org.uk/ http://ukhas.org.uk/) this article annoys me. People have been doing this stuff for years, and here we have someone who seems to just not have bothered to learn about how to track a balloon using amateur radio, GPS altitude/speed limits, best practices in terms of the parachute and balloon rigging, and most importantly this article does not once mention the FAA. There's no indication that he was aware of FAA regulations (FAA Part 101) on this type of launch. So, no consideration of payload weight, density, ... Also, he does appear to have use a trajectory predictor but only to figure out where he was going to get his balloon back and not for predicting the path through restricted airspace etc. There's a large community of people out there in the UK and US who are happy to help people get started doing this sort of thing. Please shout out for assistance! http://ukhas.org.uk/general:beginners_guide_to_high_altitude_ballooning http://ukhas.org.uk/general:beginners_guide_to_high_altitude...
- belorn 14y ago
  Permission to launch a simple balloon with a camera. I mean it sound so simple, but then you might also be required to seek permission for filming if its done over a residential area. Add that with radio regulations if you are using any kind of receiver, and there might be 3 or more agencies one would need to get permissions for a simple launch. The 'blanket' permission groups like UKHAS is however nice (if one live in the UK), and there is a loot to learn by the people there. That said, ignoring the regulations is sometimes a viable option.
  - jgrahamc 14y ago
    So, is your point that permissions might be a nuisance so ignore them? FAA regulations exist to help ensure safe interaction between aircraft; radio regulations in part exist to minimize interference. Just ignoring them seems like a bad idea to me. Note that UKHAS is not a 'blanket' permission group. The society exists to promote the hobby and make sure it is safe. We don't provide permission to anyone, that's up to the individual.
    - 14y ago
wowwtf 14y ago
Wow... How would you feel if someone would send a balloon your way next time you board a plane?

74 points by hartleybrody 14y ago

Consumer GPS devices do not work above 18 km, so unfortunately even without the cell reception limitations he would not have been able to track the balloon during it's entire voyage. (They also don't work when travelling faster than 1000 mph. I believe the limitations are to prevent consumer GPS hardware from being used in things like missiles.) I hope he manages to recover everything alright.

coin 14y ago
It's actually 1000 knots (1200 mph). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoCom#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoCom#Legacy
- tomkinstinch 14y ago
  It's supposed to be 1000 knots when above 60k ft. Due to laziness/cost, many GPS modules take it to mean any speed above 60k feet. Here's a list of ones that will work above 60k feet: http://showcase.netins.net/web/wallio/GPSrcvrsvs60kft.htm http://showcase.netins.net/web/wallio/GPSrcvrsvs60kft.htm
- jlgreco 14y ago
  Ah yes, good catch. I knew it was something like that; I always forget knots are not mph.
ChuckMcM 14y ago
Yes, that was what I was thinking, over altitude, GPS shuts off. Also I was wondering if freezing the crap out of the batteries might affect their overall charge capacity. Reading the antics of the folks over that theregister.co.uk and their high altitude experiments (granted its mostly a lot of puns around LOHAN) what struck me was they proceed very methodically in their planning. A reasonable guide for anyone wanted to get into the space balloon business I think.
- coin 14y ago
  The GPS receiver doesn't shutoff. The requirement is to stop tracking.
- eddie_the_head 14y ago
  Are these COCOM limitations based in the hardware or software of the GPS devices by the manufacturers? If it's in the software, are there not free and opensource firmwares out there that can go around such limitations?
Xcelerate 14y ago
Interesting. I've always been curious if there were limits on what these things would register. I had a speedometer app on my phone and I remember it registering about 460 mph on one of my flights.
coffeecheque 14y ago
There are some manufacturers that take those limits to be over 60K feet AND the mph limit. Others assume it to be OR. Spark Fun sells GPS modules which can be programmed, and interfaced with telemetry systems that send data back over radio so you can get it the entire time. They talk about GPS devices being "altitude safe". That seems to mean they work over 60K.

beforebeta 14y ago

just curious, is it legal to just send a balloon up in the air? considering there are so many different kinds of planes flying around, wouldn't you need clearance from the FAA or other regulatory authorities before doing this?

rabidonrails 14y ago
here's a good start for answers http://www.stratostar.net/faq/#faq1 http://www.stratostar.net/faq/#faq1
jlgreco 14y ago
It seems if you keep the payload under 6 pounds, and abide by a few other limitations, free balloons are a-okay as far as the FAA is concerned. http://www.chem.hawaii.edu/uham/part101.html http://www.chem.hawaii.edu/uham/part101.html
- tomkinstinch 14y ago
  If you're near an airport, it's still probably a good idea to notify the FAA that you'll be doing a launch.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    Indeed. It certainly cannot hurt to ask them.
- plantain 14y ago
  Read a little closer... (a) No person may operate an unmanned free balloon unless- (1) It is equipped with at least two payload cut-down systems or devices that operate independently of each other; (2) At least two methods, systems, devices, or combinations thereof, that function independently of each other, are employed for terminating the flight of the balloon envelope; and (3) The balloon envelope is equipped with a radar reflective device(s) or material that will present an echo to surface radar operating in the 200 MHz to 2700 MHz frequency range. <snip> (a) Prelaunch notice : Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate an unmanned free balloon unless, within 6 to 24 hours before beginning the operation, he gives the following information to the FAA ATC facility that is nearest to the place of intended operation: (a) Each person operating an unmanned free balloon shall: (1) Unless ATC requires otherwise, monitor the course of the balloon and record its position at least every two hours; and (2) Forward any balloon position reports requested by ATC.

rabidonrails 14y ago

Wish I could help. I'll be looking for updates to this story with fingers crossed on capturing that meteor shower!

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

vgurgov 14y ago

Its truly amazing to see how far few hundred bucks can get you this days, but can we please stop calling these stratosphere launches 'sending to space'? Is it just me or 'sending balloon to space' sounds like joke? Seems launching another one(or even few) could be cheaper than searching for this one...

ChuckMcM 14y ago
Well there is the convention that space starts at 100km up [1] but the atmosphere extends much higher just getting thinner and thinner. For a lot of people space starts when the sky is black during the 'day time' and you can see the curvature of the Earth, but of course that occurs much sooner, like 31km (~100,000') Balloons can reach 100,000' (Baumgartner jumped from 125,000' for example) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_line http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_line
zik 14y ago
The definition of "near space" says it starts at 60,000ft.

tomkinstinch 14y ago

The amateur radio club at my alma mater launched a high altitude balloon last year, and used an APRS transmitter to send back coordinates: http://www.collegearc.com/arhab/index.php http://www.collegearc.com/arhab/index.php Their flickr page has a bunch of pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/62621941@N02/sets/72157626674875178/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/62621941@N02/sets/7215762667487...

tzs 14y ago

Here's a list of some GPS modules that correctly implement the 18 km altitude, 515 m/s speed restriction using a logical AND, not a logical OR, and so are useful for high altitude ballooning: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:gps_modules http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:gps_modules Here's another: http://www.byonics.com/tinytrak/gps.php http://www.byonics.com/tinytrak/gps.php

jgrahamc 14y ago

Argh. As someone who's done this and is actively involved in the UKHAS (http://ukhas.org.uk/ http://ukhas.org.uk/) this article annoys me. People have been doing this stuff for years, and here we have someone who seems to just not have bothered to learn about how to track a balloon using amateur radio, GPS altitude/speed limits, best practices in terms of the parachute and balloon rigging, and most importantly this article does not once mention the FAA. There's no indication that he was aware of FAA regulations (FAA Part 101) on this type of launch. So, no consideration of payload weight, density, ... Also, he does appear to have use a trajectory predictor but only to figure out where he was going to get his balloon back and not for predicting the path through restricted airspace etc. There's a large community of people out there in the UK and US who are happy to help people get started doing this sort of thing. Please shout out for assistance! http://ukhas.org.uk/general:beginners_guide_to_high_altitude_ballooning http://ukhas.org.uk/general:beginners_guide_to_high_altitude...

belorn 14y ago
Permission to launch a simple balloon with a camera. I mean it sound so simple, but then you might also be required to seek permission for filming if its done over a residential area. Add that with radio regulations if you are using any kind of receiver, and there might be 3 or more agencies one would need to get permissions for a simple launch. The 'blanket' permission groups like UKHAS is however nice (if one live in the UK), and there is a loot to learn by the people there. That said, ignoring the regulations is sometimes a viable option.
- jgrahamc 14y ago
  So, is your point that permissions might be a nuisance so ignore them? FAA regulations exist to help ensure safe interaction between aircraft; radio regulations in part exist to minimize interference. Just ignoring them seems like a bad idea to me. Note that UKHAS is not a 'blanket' permission group. The society exists to promote the hobby and make sure it is safe. We don't provide permission to anyone, that's up to the individual.
  - 14y ago

wowwtf 14y ago

Wow... How would you feel if someone would send a balloon your way next time you board a plane?