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We are still allies. I think your comment here is just speaking to the limitation of your analogy.

by ericmay 9mo ago

palata 9mo ago
On the contrary, I think it explains our disconnect. If you consider that it's perfectly fine for an ally to threaten to invade ("allies are not friends"), then it may be difficult for you to understand the reaction of people who strongly disagree (and consider that "allies are friends"). IMO, when a country threatens to invade another country, it becomes an enemy. Back to Europe, I don't remember hearing that China threatened Europe militarily. Russia does, and the US as well. So I am not completely surprised when people in Europe say that they would rather buy Chinese products than American products. First because they haven't feared of a Chinese invasion in the last weeks, and second because China does not behave like an enemy. Rather a partner with divergent interests. When China threatens Taiwan, Europe may disagree, but they don't feel like Chinese people may kill European people in the next few days. The US behaves like an enemy, like Russia. Are you surprised that Europeans don't want to buy Russian products? Economically, it's not good for Russia and it's not good for Europe. Just like tensions with the US are good for neither of them.
- ericmay 9mo ago
  > If you consider that it's perfectly fine for an ally to threaten to invade I don't consider it fine, but I don't think this means we're also not allies. I understand the reaction. I largely disagree with our actions. The US would still come to the defense of France, Germany, UK, &c. We are still in NATO, we still participate in and lead military exercises, we still have troops stationed throughout NATO-aligned countries, and more. > Back to Europe, I don't remember hearing that China threatened Europe militarily. Ha, well they're not threatening Europe they are actively providing assistance in terms of materials and equipment and other support to Russia as it continues to wage war against Ukraine and prepare for a broader war against Europe. Oh and sprinkle in some hacking, and disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups too. The main criticism I have here of the EU is that they seem to think the US should come and help Europe, provide assistance against Russia, &c. but when it comes to China all of a sudden it's "they didn't attack us, they aren't threatening us, &c" - you can't have it both ways. If you don't think China is a problem or whatever, you can't blame the United States for pulling forces and support from Europe when the US feels threatened by China. Russia isn't threatening us, not going to attack us, so maybe we should just do some good trade deals with Russia and unlock resources. This is exactly how Europe is behaving with respect to China.
  - palata 9mo ago
    I think you misunderstand the feeling in Europe. > The US would still come to the defense of France, Germany, UK, Pretty sure many Europeans genuinely doubt it. It's not only Greenland (though that is an actual military threat), it's also that the US government (not only Trump) has been saying repeatedly (many times to EU governments, in front of journalists) that he may not do it. Or he may, depending on how he feels on that day. In went from "The US may not protect a NATO member anymore" to "Actually we're thinking about invading you". Maybe you see that as "words", but I strongly believe that the Europeans see that as very real threats. > sprinkle in some hacking, and disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups too. The US has been documented to spy on EU politicians forever. Also to interfere with other countries (including European countries) for their own interest. And when it comes to disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups... It's not only members of the US government who have openly been doing that, but also oligarchs like Elon Musk. > The main criticism I have here of the EU is that they seem to think the US should come and help Europe When the Europeans complain about the US now, it's very far from that. They think that the US should not behave like an enemy. And that's a wake-up call because until recently, they knew that the US was "interfering in their own interest", bullying and abusing their dominant position, but it was accepted "because it's an ally". But suddenly they explicitly tell to Europe that they are not allies. What remains? > but when it comes to China all of a sudden it's That's another thing: I don't think that Europeans see China as an ally. But this hasn't changed dramatically in the last year. When people say they would rather buy Chinese products (and it's not only Europe, look at Canada and probably others), they react to the fact that they feel they have been betrayed by the US. And when they say that, US citizen seem to genuinely not understand because "they never considered that they were friends". Well guess what, the Europeans thought it was a friendship. Of course now they're disappointed.
    - ericmay 9mo ago
      > I think you misunderstand the feeling in Europe. No, I understand it. Thanks. I disagree with it - that's different. > Pretty sure many Europeans genuinely doubt it. Let's just get to the point: do you want the United States to leave military bases in Europe and withdraw from NATO and other security commitments related to Europe? Because you and others seem to keep "doubting" it, so maybe we should just do what you think we're going to do then. > The US has been documented to spy on EU politicians forever. The EU spies on the US too. This is common practice. Don't be naive. > That's another thing: I don't think that Europeans see China as an ally. But this hasn't changed dramatically in the last year. Right... of course "China isn't an ally". But the EU is happy to do trade deals with China (which won't last by the way, once the products that were going to the US start going to Europe and grind Germany's manufacturing capabilities into dust while China continues to limit your access to their market) even when they are actively helping Russia invade Ukraine. Time and time again folks like yourself and others sit here even in these comments and say things like "China isn't doing anything to Europe" and "the US is supporting Russia" and then you act surprised when Americans say fine, maybe we will support Russia when we've sitting here giving tens of billions of dollars in equipment to Ukraine, selling them weapons we also need, providing intelligence and logistical support, including active targeting of Russian assets in Russia, seizing Russian oil tankers funding their war economy, which Europe was too weak to do until the US took the lead, maintaining tends of thousands of soldiers, aircraft, tanks, and more in Europe including in the Baltic states, Romania, &c, and more. Maybe you and others who feel like you do should be more introspective about how the EU has behaved, and how you yourself sounds to Americans. When I read comments like this, and keep in mind I think the US should have went straight to war against Russia when they invaded, it makes me want to write my Congressman and tell them to stop supporting Ukraine and leave NATO. But maybe that's your goal too. :)

We are still allies. I think your comment here is just speaking to the limitation of your analogy.

by ericmay 9mo ago

We are still allies. I think your comment here is just speaking to the limitation of your analogy.

On the contrary, I think it explains our disconnect. If you consider that it's perfectly fine for an ally to threaten to invade ("allies are not friends"), then it may be difficult for you to understand the reaction of people who strongly disagree (and consider that "allies are friends"). IMO, when a country threatens to invade another country, it becomes an enemy. Back to Europe, I don't remember hearing that China threatened Europe militarily. Russia does, and the US as well. So I am not completely surprised when people in Europe say that they would rather buy Chinese products than American products. First because they haven't feared of a Chinese invasion in the last weeks, and second because China does not behave like an enemy. Rather a partner with divergent interests. When China threatens Taiwan, Europe may disagree, but they don't feel like Chinese people may kill European people in the next few days. The US behaves like an enemy, like Russia. Are you surprised that Europeans don't want to buy Russian products? Economically, it's not good for Russia and it's not good for Europe. Just like tensions with the US are good for neither of them.

ericmay 9mo ago
> If you consider that it's perfectly fine for an ally to threaten to invade I don't consider it fine, but I don't think this means we're also not allies. I understand the reaction. I largely disagree with our actions. The US would still come to the defense of France, Germany, UK, &c. We are still in NATO, we still participate in and lead military exercises, we still have troops stationed throughout NATO-aligned countries, and more. > Back to Europe, I don't remember hearing that China threatened Europe militarily. Ha, well they're not threatening Europe they are actively providing assistance in terms of materials and equipment and other support to Russia as it continues to wage war against Ukraine and prepare for a broader war against Europe. Oh and sprinkle in some hacking, and disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups too. The main criticism I have here of the EU is that they seem to think the US should come and help Europe, provide assistance against Russia, &c. but when it comes to China all of a sudden it's "they didn't attack us, they aren't threatening us, &c" - you can't have it both ways. If you don't think China is a problem or whatever, you can't blame the United States for pulling forces and support from Europe when the US feels threatened by China. Russia isn't threatening us, not going to attack us, so maybe we should just do some good trade deals with Russia and unlock resources. This is exactly how Europe is behaving with respect to China.
- palata 9mo ago
  I think you misunderstand the feeling in Europe. > The US would still come to the defense of France, Germany, UK, Pretty sure many Europeans genuinely doubt it. It's not only Greenland (though that is an actual military threat), it's also that the US government (not only Trump) has been saying repeatedly (many times to EU governments, in front of journalists) that he may not do it. Or he may, depending on how he feels on that day. In went from "The US may not protect a NATO member anymore" to "Actually we're thinking about invading you". Maybe you see that as "words", but I strongly believe that the Europeans see that as very real threats. > sprinkle in some hacking, and disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups too. The US has been documented to spy on EU politicians forever. Also to interfere with other countries (including European countries) for their own interest. And when it comes to disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups... It's not only members of the US government who have openly been doing that, but also oligarchs like Elon Musk. > The main criticism I have here of the EU is that they seem to think the US should come and help Europe When the Europeans complain about the US now, it's very far from that. They think that the US should not behave like an enemy. And that's a wake-up call because until recently, they knew that the US was "interfering in their own interest", bullying and abusing their dominant position, but it was accepted "because it's an ally". But suddenly they explicitly tell to Europe that they are not allies. What remains? > but when it comes to China all of a sudden it's That's another thing: I don't think that Europeans see China as an ally. But this hasn't changed dramatically in the last year. When people say they would rather buy Chinese products (and it's not only Europe, look at Canada and probably others), they react to the fact that they feel they have been betrayed by the US. And when they say that, US citizen seem to genuinely not understand because "they never considered that they were friends". Well guess what, the Europeans thought it was a friendship. Of course now they're disappointed.
  - ericmay 9mo ago
    > I think you misunderstand the feeling in Europe. No, I understand it. Thanks. I disagree with it - that's different. > Pretty sure many Europeans genuinely doubt it. Let's just get to the point: do you want the United States to leave military bases in Europe and withdraw from NATO and other security commitments related to Europe? Because you and others seem to keep "doubting" it, so maybe we should just do what you think we're going to do then. > The US has been documented to spy on EU politicians forever. The EU spies on the US too. This is common practice. Don't be naive. > That's another thing: I don't think that Europeans see China as an ally. But this hasn't changed dramatically in the last year. Right... of course "China isn't an ally". But the EU is happy to do trade deals with China (which won't last by the way, once the products that were going to the US start going to Europe and grind Germany's manufacturing capabilities into dust while China continues to limit your access to their market) even when they are actively helping Russia invade Ukraine. Time and time again folks like yourself and others sit here even in these comments and say things like "China isn't doing anything to Europe" and "the US is supporting Russia" and then you act surprised when Americans say fine, maybe we will support Russia when we've sitting here giving tens of billions of dollars in equipment to Ukraine, selling them weapons we also need, providing intelligence and logistical support, including active targeting of Russian assets in Russia, seizing Russian oil tankers funding their war economy, which Europe was too weak to do until the US took the lead, maintaining tends of thousands of soldiers, aircraft, tanks, and more in Europe including in the Baltic states, Romania, &c, and more. Maybe you and others who feel like you do should be more introspective about how the EU has behaved, and how you yourself sounds to Americans. When I read comments like this, and keep in mind I think the US should have went straight to war against Russia when they invaded, it makes me want to write my Congressman and tell them to stop supporting Ukraine and leave NATO. But maybe that's your goal too. :)