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I don't think that's a good analogy. But if you want to stick with it, in this scenario the situation would be you aren't friends, and don't intend to be becau

by ericmay 9mo ago

I don't think that's a good analogy. But if you want to stick with it, in this scenario the situation would be you aren't friends, and don't intend to be because you both made each other really mad, and by having sex with the wife she gives you a lot of good stuff that you want and you're not really concerned with your former friend's feelings.

palata 9mo ago
> in this scenario the situation would be you aren't friends You think that the Europeans bought defense systems that depend on the US without thinking they were allies?
- ericmay 9mo ago
  We are still allies. I think your comment here is just speaking to the limitation of your analogy.
  - palata 9mo ago
    On the contrary, I think it explains our disconnect. If you consider that it's perfectly fine for an ally to threaten to invade ("allies are not friends"), then it may be difficult for you to understand the reaction of people who strongly disagree (and consider that "allies are friends"). IMO, when a country threatens to invade another country, it becomes an enemy. Back to Europe, I don't remember hearing that China threatened Europe militarily. Russia does, and the US as well. So I am not completely surprised when people in Europe say that they would rather buy Chinese products than American products. First because they haven't feared of a Chinese invasion in the last weeks, and second because China does not behave like an enemy. Rather a partner with divergent interests. When China threatens Taiwan, Europe may disagree, but they don't feel like Chinese people may kill European people in the next few days. The US behaves like an enemy, like Russia. Are you surprised that Europeans don't want to buy Russian products? Economically, it's not good for Russia and it's not good for Europe. Just like tensions with the US are good for neither of them.
    - ericmay 9mo ago
      > If you consider that it's perfectly fine for an ally to threaten to invade I don't consider it fine, but I don't think this means we're also not allies. I understand the reaction. I largely disagree with our actions. The US would still come to the defense of France, Germany, UK, &c. We are still in NATO, we still participate in and lead military exercises, we still have troops stationed throughout NATO-aligned countries, and more. > Back to Europe, I don't remember hearing that China threatened Europe militarily. Ha, well they're not threatening Europe they are actively providing assistance in terms of materials and equipment and other support to Russia as it continues to wage war against Ukraine and prepare for a broader war against Europe. Oh and sprinkle in some hacking, and disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups too. The main criticism I have here of the EU is that they seem to think the US should come and help Europe, provide assistance against Russia, &c. but when it comes to China all of a sudden it's "they didn't attack us, they aren't threatening us, &c" - you can't have it both ways. If you don't think China is a problem or whatever, you can't blame the United States for pulling forces and support from Europe when the US feels threatened by China. Russia isn't threatening us, not going to attack us, so maybe we should just do some good trade deals with Russia and unlock resources. This is exactly how Europe is behaving with respect to China.
      - palata 9mo ago
        I think you misunderstand the feeling in Europe. > The US would still come to the defense of France, Germany, UK, Pretty sure many Europeans genuinely doubt it. It's not only Greenland (though that is an actual military threat), it's also that the US government (not only Trump) has been saying repeatedly (many times to EU governments, in front of journalists) that he may not do it. Or he may, depending on how he feels on that day. In went from "The US may not protect a NATO member anymore" to "Actually we're thinking about invading you". Maybe you see that as "words", but I strongly believe that the Europeans see that as very real threats. > sprinkle in some hacking, and disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups too. The US has been documented to spy on EU politicians forever. Also to interfere with other countries (including European countries) for their own interest. And when it comes to disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups... It's not only members of the US government who have openly been doing that, but also oligarchs like Elon Musk. > The main criticism I have here of the EU is that they seem to think the US should come and help Europe When the Europeans complain about the US now, it's very far from that. They think that the US should not behave like an enemy. And that's a wake-up call because until recently, they knew that the US was "interfering in their own interest", bullying and abusing their dominant position, but it was accepted "because it's an ally". But suddenly they explicitly tell to Europe that they are not allies. What remains? > but when it comes to China all of a sudden it's That's another thing: I don't think that Europeans see China as an ally. But this hasn't changed dramatically in the last year. When people say they would rather buy Chinese products (and it's not only Europe, look at Canada and probably others), they react to the fact that they feel they have been betrayed by the US. And when they say that, US citizen seem to genuinely not understand because "they never considered that they were friends". Well guess what, the Europeans thought it was a friendship. Of course now they're disappointed.

by ericmay 9mo ago

palata 9mo ago

> in this scenario the situation would be you aren't friends You think that the Europeans bought defense systems that depend on the US without thinking they were allies?

ericmay 9mo ago
We are still allies. I think your comment here is just speaking to the limitation of your analogy.
- palata 9mo ago
  On the contrary, I think it explains our disconnect. If you consider that it's perfectly fine for an ally to threaten to invade ("allies are not friends"), then it may be difficult for you to understand the reaction of people who strongly disagree (and consider that "allies are friends"). IMO, when a country threatens to invade another country, it becomes an enemy. Back to Europe, I don't remember hearing that China threatened Europe militarily. Russia does, and the US as well. So I am not completely surprised when people in Europe say that they would rather buy Chinese products than American products. First because they haven't feared of a Chinese invasion in the last weeks, and second because China does not behave like an enemy. Rather a partner with divergent interests. When China threatens Taiwan, Europe may disagree, but they don't feel like Chinese people may kill European people in the next few days. The US behaves like an enemy, like Russia. Are you surprised that Europeans don't want to buy Russian products? Economically, it's not good for Russia and it's not good for Europe. Just like tensions with the US are good for neither of them.
  - ericmay 9mo ago
    > If you consider that it's perfectly fine for an ally to threaten to invade I don't consider it fine, but I don't think this means we're also not allies. I understand the reaction. I largely disagree with our actions. The US would still come to the defense of France, Germany, UK, &c. We are still in NATO, we still participate in and lead military exercises, we still have troops stationed throughout NATO-aligned countries, and more. > Back to Europe, I don't remember hearing that China threatened Europe militarily. Ha, well they're not threatening Europe they are actively providing assistance in terms of materials and equipment and other support to Russia as it continues to wage war against Ukraine and prepare for a broader war against Europe. Oh and sprinkle in some hacking, and disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups too. The main criticism I have here of the EU is that they seem to think the US should come and help Europe, provide assistance against Russia, &c. but when it comes to China all of a sudden it's "they didn't attack us, they aren't threatening us, &c" - you can't have it both ways. If you don't think China is a problem or whatever, you can't blame the United States for pulling forces and support from Europe when the US feels threatened by China. Russia isn't threatening us, not going to attack us, so maybe we should just do some good trade deals with Russia and unlock resources. This is exactly how Europe is behaving with respect to China.
    - palata 9mo ago
      I think you misunderstand the feeling in Europe. > The US would still come to the defense of France, Germany, UK, Pretty sure many Europeans genuinely doubt it. It's not only Greenland (though that is an actual military threat), it's also that the US government (not only Trump) has been saying repeatedly (many times to EU governments, in front of journalists) that he may not do it. Or he may, depending on how he feels on that day. In went from "The US may not protect a NATO member anymore" to "Actually we're thinking about invading you". Maybe you see that as "words", but I strongly believe that the Europeans see that as very real threats. > sprinkle in some hacking, and disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups too. The US has been documented to spy on EU politicians forever. Also to interfere with other countries (including European countries) for their own interest. And when it comes to disinformation campaigns to fuel European far-right groups... It's not only members of the US government who have openly been doing that, but also oligarchs like Elon Musk. > The main criticism I have here of the EU is that they seem to think the US should come and help Europe When the Europeans complain about the US now, it's very far from that. They think that the US should not behave like an enemy. And that's a wake-up call because until recently, they knew that the US was "interfering in their own interest", bullying and abusing their dominant position, but it was accepted "because it's an ally". But suddenly they explicitly tell to Europe that they are not allies. What remains? > but when it comes to China all of a sudden it's That's another thing: I don't think that Europeans see China as an ally. But this hasn't changed dramatically in the last year. When people say they would rather buy Chinese products (and it's not only Europe, look at Canada and probably others), they react to the fact that they feel they have been betrayed by the US. And when they say that, US citizen seem to genuinely not understand because "they never considered that they were friends". Well guess what, the Europeans thought it was a friendship. Of course now they're disappointed.